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  1. #31
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    All suppositions that lack scientific proof are not equal. Just because you believe one thing that hasn't been proven doesn't mean you have to believe everything that hasn't been proven. Do you think everyone that believes in ghosts should have to also believe in leprechauns? Should everyone that believes in clairvoyance also have to believe in the Loch Ness Monster?

    You're correct that I can't prove you wrong, but that isn't the same thing as believing it myself. Maybe I don't understand your question, because this seems obvious to me.
    That has more to do with the framing of the supposition than its veracity.

    Not all are equal but some are more equal than others. If we ascribed god powers to faeries for example, making them responsible for creation and the workings of nature - I'd say that would be enough to put faeries on equal footing since we can have no veracity of details anyway (such as the idea that God created the earth in 6 days or spoke through a burning bush)

  2. #32
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    And I will go a step farther: you might ask (as well you should) "Greenfairy, if you believe in fairies, do you believe in God, and if not why?"

    And I would answer: I don't believe in God as an absolute form of all power. I believe in deities as concentrations of energy, created by people as thought forms. Most fairies would fit that description as well. However, I think some probably existed before humans, but they were created as part of nature. Everything is energy, and all things are concentrations of energy. So I have reasoning for my mystical belief. Do you?

  3. #33
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    And I will go a step farther: you might ask (as well you should) "Greenfairy, if you believe in fairies, do you believe in God, and if not why?"

    And I would answer: I don't believe in God as an absolute form of all power. I believe in deities as concentrations of energy, created by people as thought forms. Most fairies would fit that description as well. However, I think some probably existed before humans, but they were created as part of nature. Everything is energy, and all things are concentrations of energy. So I have reasoning for my mystical belief. Do you?
    Are we talking about verity belief or abstract belief here?

    There can be a pretty big difference in handling the two. One is based on truth and the other is based on idealistic principle.

    Believing that a deity physically exists somewhere is not the same as believing it as some kind of guiding ideal.

  4. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That has more to do with the framing of the supposition than its veracity.

    Not all are equal but some are more equal than others. If we ascribed god powers to faeries for example, making them responsible for creation and the workings of nature - I'd say that would be enough to put faeries on equal footing since we can have no veracity of details anyway (such as the idea that God created the earth in 6 days or spoke through a burning bush)
    I don't disagree with any of what you said. My point was more that belief in any of these phenomena is based on something other than universally accepted scientific truth, so trying to point out that someone has a logically inconsistent opinion of which phenomena they believe in is a fool's errand. You can't use logic to dismiss a position that wasn't arrived at on the basis of logic.

    For instance, the existence of ghosts is not a scientifically proven fact, and neither is the existence of fairies. But if someone sees a ghost and chooses to believe in ghosts but not fairies, I don't see how anyone can take issue with that or call it logically inconsistent.
    Everybody have fun tonight. Everybody Wang Chung tonight.

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  5. #35
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    If you define God to have the same properties as Fairies, then they are equivalent regardless of the qualities being described. For instance, if you say that God created all and say that Fairies did as well, then they are equivalent in nature. However, I read your argument as a knowledge argument; believing on faith, which results in all beliefs that derive themselves from the same rules as equal (/equally valid/likely).
    Yes, my argument was somewhat unclear, and probably intentionally so; but what I was getting at is simply that people's reasons for automatically rejecting belief in fairies could usually be applied to the concept of God. I'm really going for the incongruity of rejecting one belief and holding another by the same standards of dismissal. People often have further arguments for God, but there is an assumption that they are not needed; whereas I may have further arguments for fairies and people assume that there aren't any to have.
    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    First Cause, or the cosmological argument, is a foundation for believing in something in which the belief is deduced, making it different than believing in mythical constructs in a social sense (taught belief, supernatural). That is, if someone believes in God as defined by the cosmological argument, their view is not equal to a belief in Fairies that has no logical induction. Of course, this isn't grounds to say that the cosmological argument is correct, only that the fallacies and structure of the argument are very different.

    Let me put forth an example that is more modern. I'm a creationist; I believe in the simulated reality theory. The nature of the belief, the foundation of knowledge, make my conversation with a young earth creationist virtually impossible. They are not equal beliefs, even if ultimately they have a common bond.

    You ask why people can believe in one thing but not another. People may be inconsistent, but there is also multiple ways to deduce a position. The outcome does not state the probability of truth (truth being true/false; certainty being variable).
    It's a good argument (although I disagree with it). And I suppose the causal argument is in most people's eyes more sensible than fairies. Although if you think of fairies as being on the same level as ghosts, then they are not-entirely-physical or non physical beings. And God is a non physical being. So it's not that silly; disproving the idea of fairies involves things that might disprove God. Like, if there are no nonphysical beings then there is no God unless God is the only exception.

    So is God simply a cause and not a being or a mind?

  6. #36
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

  7. #37
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't disagree with any of what you said. My point was more that belief in any of these phenomena is based on something other than universally accepted scientific truth, so trying to point out that someone has a logically inconsistent opinion of which phenomena they believe in is a fool's errand. You can't use logic to dismiss a position that wasn't arrived at on the basis of logic.

    For instance, the existence of ghosts is not a scientifically proven fact, and neither is the existence of fairies. But if someone sees a ghost and chooses to believe in ghosts but not fairies, I don't see how anyone can take issue with that or call it logically inconsistent.
    That's why we need to separate verity from ideal. Rarely do these beliefs stop at just saying "Ok, I'm pretty sure I saw that ghost thing there." Nobody just says "This exists" and then goes on about their business. There's an entire worldview that follows behind it.

    If one believes x and then proceeds to do y and z because of it, then justification is highly relevant.

  8. #38
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EffEmDoubleyou View Post
    I don't disagree with any of what you said. My point was more that belief in any of these phenomena is based on something other than universally accepted scientific truth, so trying to point out that someone has a logically inconsistent opinion of which phenomena they believe in is a fool's errand. You can't use logic to dismiss a position that wasn't arrived at on the basis of logic.

    For instance, the existence of ghosts is not a scientifically proven fact, and neither is the existence of fairies. But if someone sees a ghost and chooses to believe in ghosts but not fairies, I don't see how anyone can take issue with that or call it logically inconsistent.
    I suppose not, but that person is not entitled to accuse the other person of being any more irrational. I would call it logically inconsistent if that person refused to acknowledge the possibility of the other things, as opposed to simply not affirming it and leaning toward rejection of it.

  9. #39
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lexicon View Post
    Fairies don't believe in you either!

    *Can I do the same thing to God?

  10. #40
    Temporal Mechanic. Lexicon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Fairies don't believe in you either!

    *Can I do the same thing to God?
    Anything's worth a try, right?
    03/23 06:06:58 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:06:59 EcK: lex
    03/23 06:21:34 Nancynobullets: LEXXX *sacrifices a first born*
    03/23 06:21:53 Nancynobullets: We summon yooouuu
    03/23 06:29:07 Lexicon: I was sleeping!



    04/25 04:20:35 Patches: Don't listen to lex. She wants to birth a litter of kittens. She doesnt get to decide whats creepy

    02/16 23:49:38 ygolo: Lex is afk
    02/16 23:49:45 Cimarron: she's doing drugs with Jack

    03/05 19:27:41 Time: You can't make chat morbid. Lex does it naturally.

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