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  1. #111
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    No, not really, my point is that when Copernicus discovered that the earth, and man, were not the centre of the universe he didnt succeed in changing the thinking which underpinned those ideas, even while proclaiming infinesimal importance or meaninglessness thinking for some time has remained mankind centric, perhaps its fated to be so but thankfully denying external cosmological forces like God has not led to simultaneously denying gravitation or anything else like it.
    Again, I'm not understanding you. I was contrasting a focus on the individual with a focus on humanity as a whole, vs a focus on deity. I understand what you are saying about Copernicus and largely agree, but what do you mean by infinitesmal importance, or meaningless thinking, and what has this to do with God vs. gravity?
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Why do you believe in an immaterial nonphysical God-being, which can't be observed through scientific investigation, but you dismiss the idea of (mostly) immaterial, (mostly) nonphysical nature spirits called fairies which can't be observed through scientific investigation?
    my understanding of the psychology behind belief is that its not merely enough to make an agnostic conclusion that "it could be", but rather a positive conclusion that "it must be", that it is somehow necessary for the belief to be true.

    for that to happen, it has to explain something that doesn't make sense to that person otherwise, it has to delve into what the believer would experience as the great unknown, and somehow resolve it.

    fairies represent a mental set where the realm of the unknown was much intimate, where the growth patterns in nature didn't make much sense, where people dead in the forest didn't make much sense, where natural abortions didn't make much sense (though that was usually elves).

    theism pushed the line much further - existence itself, mortality, morality, etc'. making sense of questions that for many still don't make much sense, still in the realm of the unknown. its that very intrinsic minimalism in the essence of what made it survive so long and flourish even under sociological stress.

    this is why - while both might gain the same agnostic approval of "they can be" - theism maintains the strength of the positive psychological approval that the belief in fairies has since lost.

  3. #113
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    my understanding of the psychology behind belief is that its not merely enough to make an agnostic conclusion that "it could be", but rather a positive conclusion that "it must be", that it is somehow necessary for the belief to be true.

    for that to happen, it has to explain something that doesn't make sense to that person otherwise, it has to delve into what the believer would experience as the great unknown, and somehow resolve it.

    fairies represent a mental set where the realm of the unknown was much intimate, where the growth patterns in nature didn't make much sense, where people dead in the forest didn't make much sense, where natural abortions didn't make much sense (though that was usually elves).

    theism pushed the line much further - existence itself, mortality, morality, etc'. making sense of questions that for many still don't make much sense, still in the realm of the unknown. its that very intrinsic minimalism in the essence of what made it survive so long and flourish even under sociological stress.

    this is why - while both might gain the same agnostic approval of "they can be" - theism maintains the strength of the positive psychological approval that the belief in fairies has since lost.
    That makes sense, but remember that when fairy belief was popular people were polytheistic. They didn't simply believe in a one god to solve the ultimate mysteries; gods were personalities and archetypes, and represented elements of nature and human nature. Fairies weren't simply an explanation either, they were nature spirits which existed in a not-so-physical realm. They were like animals and humans, just mostly invisible. The attributing of explanatory status to them occurred mostly after Christianity, when the old beliefs were trivialized into "fairy tales." They were beings which coexisted with humans. Gods were thought of in much the same way, but with additional powers. I agree that people believe in God now because they need an explanation- in a lot of ways theism (among educated people) has become intellectualized and de-anthropomorphized.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    That makes sense, but remember that when fairy belief was popular people were polytheistic. They didn't simply believe in a one god to solve the ultimate mysteries; gods were personalities and archetypes, and represented elements of nature and human nature. Fairies weren't simply an explanation either, they were nature spirits which existed in a not-so-physical realm. They were like animals and humans, just mostly invisible. The attributing of explanatory status to them occurred mostly after Christianity, when the old beliefs were trivialized into "fairy tales." They were beings which coexisted with humans. Gods were thought of in much the same way, but with additional powers. I agree that people believe in God now because they need an explanation- in a lot of ways theism (among educated people) has become intellectualized and de-anthropomorphized.
    interesting, though when i imagine the storytellers of the time tell these stories around the campfire, i tend to think polytheistic faiths served mankind better as explanations to various phenomena, since it's basically metaphors taking a life of their own straight from the tribal life that people knew. i wouldn't be surprised if the original characters stemmed from an already existing ancestral-worship tapestry of faith prior.
    another possible source was cross cultural encounters: it's being suggested that the Minoens brought on the story of the centaurs. is it that unlikely that nature worshiping and wood dwelling cults/tribes brought on the belief of fae?

  5. #115
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    interesting, though when i imagine the storytellers of the time tell these stories around the campfire, i tend to think polytheistic faiths served mankind better as explanations to various phenomena, since it's basically metaphors taking a life of their own straight from the tribal life that people knew. i wouldn't be surprised if the original characters stemmed from an already existing ancestral-worship tapestry of faith prior.
    another possible source was cross cultural encounters: it's being suggested that the Minoens brought on the story of the centaurs. is it that unlikely that nature worshiping and wood dwelling cults/tribes brought on the belief of fae?
    I'm sure that was at least part of it; in Ireland supposedly it came partly from a race of native people who were tiny and lived in hills (but who really knows). It's like a chicken or egg thing I guess.

  6. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm sure that was at least part of it; in Ireland supposedly it came partly from a race of native people who were tiny and lived in hills (but who really knows). It's like a chicken or egg thing I guess.
    right, so the question isn't where it comes from, but what sustained the belief once it was there. that's what i was trying to get at earlier.

  7. #117
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    right, so the question isn't where it comes from, but what sustained the belief once it was there. that's what i was trying to get at earlier.
    Ah.

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