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  1. #11
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    How can you apply this principle to find "deeper" patterns within phenomena that you experience that might contradict the current belief you have of them?
    I can hold someone else's test results in my mind, hoping to also have the same test results. If I never do, I conclude that what's true for you is true, but it might not be true for me, and I let it go at that.

  2. #12
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    I don't.

    Within me, there exists no such thing as belief. There exist only possibilities.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made CONCEPTS and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making.

    With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about-reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper than is the level of concept.

    We look through the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids. A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

    Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all Reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

    DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

    The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

    The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

    Reality is the original Rorschach.

  4. #14
    Senior Member Tiltyred's Avatar
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    's what I said, isn't it?

  5. #15
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    Ironically, objectivity.
    If objectivity is true, then x can be false.
    But if objectivity is false, then x can't be false.
    x, all x, could be true.

  6. #16
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    Contradicts? Define contradict?
    It was not meant to be complicated

    if it contradicts 'reality' whatever that is, why would I hold this belief. Also its like a pantheon, a statistical spread of 'beliefs' I'd go 'down' on the pile, but if there is also evidence 'for it' I'll always sometimes consider it as part of the solution pool. (if i think of it)
    I did not say it contradicted reality, rather that it would contradict an assumption one might have about reality.

    You don't have to play if you don't want to. Nobody is holding a gun to your head.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    The Aneristic Principle is that of APPARENT ORDER; the Eristic Principle is that of APPARENT DISORDER. Both order and disorder are man made CONCEPTS and are artificial divisions of PURE CHAOS, which is a level deeper than is the level of distinction making.

    With our concept making apparatus called "mind" we look at reality through the ideas-about-reality which our cultures give us. The ideas-about-reality are mistakenly labeled "reality" and unenlightened people are forever perplexed by the fact that other people, especially other cultures, see "reality" differently. It is only the ideas-about-reality which differ. Real (capital-T True) reality is a level deeper than is the level of concept.

    We look through the world through windows on which have been drawn grids (concepts). Different philosophies use different grids. A culture is a group of people with rather similar grids. Through a window we view chaos, and relate it to the points on our grid, and thereby understand it. The ORDER is in the GRID. That is the Aneristic Principle.

    Western philosophy is traditionally concerned with contrasting one grid with another grid, and amending grids in hopes of finding a perfect one that will account for all Reality and will, hence, (say unenlightened westerners) be True. This is illusory; it is what we Erisians call the ANERISTIC ILLUSION. Some grids can be more useful than others, some more beautiful than others, some more pleasant than others, etc., but none can be more True than any other.

    DISORDER is simply unrelated information viewed through some particular grid. But, like "relation", no-relation is a concept. Male, like female, is an idea about sex. To say that male-ness is "absence of female-ness", or vice versa, is a matter of definition and metaphysically arbitrary. The artificial concept of no-relation is the ERISTIC PRINCIPLE.

    The belief that "order is true" and disorder is false or somehow wrong, is the Aneristic Illusion. To say the same of disorder, is the ERISTIC ILLUSION.

    The point is that (little-t) truth is a matter of definition relative to the grid one is using at the moment, and that (capital-T) Truth, metaphysical reality, is irrelevant to grids entirely. Pick a grid, and through it some chaos appears ordered and some appears disordered. Pick another grid, and the same chaos will appear differently ordered and disordered.

    Reality is the original Rorschach.
    How do you know this to be true?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffywolf View Post
    I don't.

    Within me, there exists no such thing as belief. There exist only possibilities.
    How does looking at the world this way impact your life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    That the puddle is diveable.
    What if I told you that it was possible, but extremely unlikely?

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Are you struggling with something in particular?
    No, this is just a problem solving thing I do with myself and my friends and I thought doing it in the form of Ism's cartoon might be interesting.


    It will just keep being a recurrent issue in my life, or thought I'm having. It will keep nagging at me. I will start trying to find the truth on my own, but if I cannot, I generally turn to others for input until I have enough opinions that it helps me to refine mine.

    For one example: I used to think incest was gross (like everyone prolly does), but I think it's not disgusting anymore, as long as it's between adults and not in my family. It took me a while to figure that out though. I believed in Jesus for a while--that he was God--but the truth pervaded because I just could not suspend my disbelief anymore. I believe in God and that he is the 3O's, but I could even change my belief on that over time...perhaps come to see God as less anthropomorphic and more universal? Stuff like that.
    Sure. What would convince you that that was actual. What experience could you have that would make the belief you have now false?

    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    Ironically, objectivity.
    If objectivity is true, then x can be false.
    But if objectivity is false, then x can't be false.
    x, all x, could be true.
    What if information is statistical and things have a probability of being true or false?
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  7. #17
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I don't care since it's neither true nor false by its own description.

  8. #18
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post

    How does looking at the world this way impact your life?
    It doesn't have an impact, but then that is the point.

    In terms of bodies of water, I am not a sea, lake or river. I am a canal, calmly moving in a straight line.

    To explain the analogy. I'm an observer and the observer is not the one experiencing the impact. I am comfortable enough with existing and expanding in orderly fashion.
    ~Self-depricating Megalomaniacal Superwolf

  9. #19
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    Cool, I get to copy-paste.

    Essentially, "there is sufficient evidence" would need to be true. .. for some definition of "sufficient."
    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    I'd hope that evidence is important to me, though I suffer from bias and internal lawyer-logic like everyone else.

    Evidence is important to the extent that a view that is consistent with the evidence is important, and such a view is important to the extent that it's actually a beneficial guide. .. ... which it usually is.

    We shouldn't exactly slam the brakes on our own worldview every time we come across some single piece of evidence that might indicate that we should turn ourselves around, though, as we'd be absolutely aimless. We also have to own up to the fact that changing our worldview, even for the better, and/or even with resounding evidence, can be pretty damn difficult.

  10. #20
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    A better question is, what does it take to falsify a belief.

    And this is a better question because the scientific method is falsification of beliefs.

    For instance, Israeli archeologists have falsified the belief in the Exodus.

    The Exodus is an important belief in Judaism, Christianity and Islam and is a founding belief of State of Israel. So the Israeli archeologists, in applying to scientific method to this belief, demonstrated their intellectual integrity and courage.

    And as you read scientists are trying to falsify the belief in quantum mechanics, and so far they have failed to falsify quantum mechanics with every experiment they have tried.

    And we are still trying to falsify relativity. For instance, relativity predicted that light would bend near the Sun. And when we did the measurements, we found light bent to exactly the amount predicted by relativity.

    So we have been able to falsify the belief in the Exodus but unable to falsify the belief in quantum mechanics or relativity.

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