Freedom is...

[Lark]

“Freedom is not a constant attribute which we either "have" or "have not." In fact, there is no such thing as "freedom" except as a word and an abstract concept. There is only one reality: the act of freeing ourselves in the process of making choices. In this process the degree of our capacity to make choices varies with each act, with our practice of life.”
― Erich Fromm, El Corazon del Hombre: Su Potencia Para el Bien y Para el Mal

Probably the best definition of freedom I know, what do you think?

Its between this and the discourse on voluntary servitude.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

“Freedom is not a constant attribute which we either "have" or "have not." In fact, there is no such thing as "freedom" except as a word and an abstract concept. There is only one reality: the act of freeing ourselves in the process of making choices. In this process the degree of our capacity to make choices varies with each act, with our practice of life.”
― Erich Fromm, El Corazon del Hombre: Su Potencia Para el Bien y Para el Mal

Probably the best definition of freedom I know, what do you think?

I like the first part a lot. But then...

I think sometimes we are the most free when we completely let go and let God. And give in. That we are the most powerful when we become weakest.

So the part that says that making choices frees us is..... not really the way I see it. Not making choices can be very freeing, perhaps the most freeing, because one is allowing life to just flow where it will, without any sort of control whatsoever.

Its between this and the discourse on voluntary servitude.

Mmmm. Do tell us more about this.

 

[Haight]

Probably the best definition of freedom I know, what do you think?

I agree. It's probably the best definition on freedom that you know.

 

[sprinkles]

I think freedom has two modes. I'd compare it to the primary rule of a firewall - 'allow' or 'disallow'. You can either set it so the primary rule allows everything in, and further rules override this with specific exceptions, or you can set it to block everything out, with further rules to override it with specific exceptions.

We tend to have a mixture between the two modes, more or less.

For example, you're allowed to walk anywhere except for places that are forbidden. On the other hand you are forbidden from driving except for when you have a license.

 

[Mole]

We freed ourselves from institutional slavery in the House of Commons in 1833.

And we freed ourselves from making chattels of women in Australia and New Zealand in 1904.

And today we are freeing ourselves from the abuse of children by the Ryan Report in Ireland and the National Royal Commission in Australia.

We are living through an historic moment of freedom, yet most of us are narcissists.

 

[sprinkles]

 

[Elfboy]

haven't read the OT, but I would define freedom as the right to do whatever you want within the tangible limits of your abilities sans bureaucratic restriction, restriction by force or outside obligation

I believe in total freedom with the exception of 3 inherent obligations
1) respecting the freedom of others
2) honoring agreements made (though there are a few exceptions in the instance of being conned, coerced or drastically altered circumstances)
3) giving your children a safe, healthy, loving environment and teaching them everything they need to know to survive by the time they are an adult

other than that, do whatever the hell you want. that's freedom

 

[Cellmold]

Freedom of mind and thought is the only real freedom.

And even then that fortress is not wholly safe because of the constant influence of determinism, subliminal messaging and indoctrination.

Externally what we possess is an ever changing tide of choices...as this sea waxes and wanes the choices seem to grow and to diminish.
The difference between each country, (for example), is the variation in choices each possesses. Ironically some countries have many many choices, but they are inhabited by people who limit themselves to just one or two.

Im always fascinated by the contradiction in the United States where freedom of speech is so often used to constrict the freedom of others.

But we are greedy. The more choice we have, the more we want; to the point that we will actually wage wars to achieve or maintain that choice.

Once we have that choice though; what do we do with it? It is a sad ending that we seem to be left with people who want to control more and more choices and limit them to only the ones that they approve of. Fascism does not have to be the system of a countries government to exist strongly in the mind of it's inhabitants.

 

[Lark]

I agree. It's probably the best definition on freedom that you know.

What's the best definition of freedom you know?

 

[Lark]

haven't read the OT, but I would define freedom as the right to do whatever you want within the tangible limits of your abilities sans bureaucratic restriction, restriction by force or outside obligation

I believe in total freedom with the exception of 3 inherent obligations
1) respecting the freedom of others
2) honoring agreements made (though there are a few exceptions in the instance of being conned, coerced or drastically altered circumstances)
3) giving your children a safe, healthy, loving environment and teaching them everything they need to know to survive by the time they are an adult

other than that, do whatever the hell you want. that's freedom

What's the OT?

Your definition just sounds like a juristic or legalistic framing to suit fiscal libertarianism or capitalism, no disrespect, I think freedom existed before capitalism, capitalism limits it, and freedom will exist after capitalism has gone.

 

[Lark]

Freedom of mind and thought is the only real freedom.

And even then that fortress is not wholly safe because of the constant influence of determinism, subliminal messaging and indoctrination.

Externally what we possess is an ever changing tide of choices...as this sea waxes and wanes the choices seem to grow and to diminish.
The difference between each country, (for example), is the variation in choices each possesses. Ironically some countries have many many choices, but they are inhabited by people who limit themselves to just one or two.

Im always fascinated by the contradiction in the United States where freedom of speech is so often used to constrict the freedom of others.

But we are greedy. The more choice we have, the more we want; to the point that we will actually wage wars to achieve or maintain that choice.

Once we have that choice though; what do we do with it? It is a sad ending that we seem to be left with people who want to control more and more choices and limit them to only the ones that they approve of. Fascism does not have to be the system of a countries government to exist strongly in the mind of it's inhabitants.

The final point is a good one, in any of the countries which deserve that title it was a popular and public mobilisation before, during and after any regime itself which claimed to represent or be the embodiment of the idea.

 

[Rad3k]

“Freedom is not a constant attribute which we either "have" or "have not." In fact, there is no such thing as "freedom" except as a word and an abstract concept. There is only one reality: the act of freeing ourselves in the process of making choices. In this process the degree of our capacity to make choices varies with each act, with our practice of life.”
― Erich Fromm, El Corazon del Hombre: Su Potencia Para el Bien y Para el Mal

Probably the best definition of freedom I know, what do you think?

Its between this and the discourse on voluntary servitude.

In a philosophical sense, the bolded is what I agree with. In that sense, freedom (and thus free will) is only an illusion. Every choice I make is determined by a combination of who I am and the circumstances. Who I am is ultimately determined by past circumstances. The only freedom I have is the freedom of being myself, of doing what I'm bound to do. It can be said that I am my freedom. And what precisely that is, I'm not entirely sure.

So the part that says that making choices frees us is..... not really the way I see it. Not making choices can be very freeing, perhaps the most freeing, because one is allowing life to just flow where it will, without any sort of control whatsoever.

If you're not making a choice because you can't, what's freeing about that? And if you just choose not to make a choice then you have already made a choice. The only way it would make sense is if you made a choice that would limit your future choices. But wouldn't that be just escaping responsibility?

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

In a philosophical sense, the bolded is what I agree with. In that sense, freedom (and thus free will) is only an illusion. Every choice I make is determined by a combination of who I am and the circumstances. Who I am is ultimately determined by past circumstances. The only freedom I have is the freedom of being myself, of doing what I'm bound to do. It can be said that I am my freedom. And what precisely that is, I'm not entirely sure.



If you're not making a choice because you can't, what's freeing about that? And if you just choose not to make a choice then you have already made a choice. The only way it would make sense is if you made a choice that would limit your future choices. But wouldn't that be just escaping responsibility?

Oh, I CAN make a choice. But choosing not to make a choice is a choice to not interject my own conscious will on life, but to let the actions of others reign over me.

It's a passive choice versus an active choice. And being passive can make a beautiful difference. Because it allows the possibility for the nuances of the unconscious and others' choices to supercede my path.

And this is fascinating for me> The space created, and things that fill it, when I stand down and choose passivity.



Of course, always choosing passivity would be boring and irresponsible, yes. One would then likely become 'passive-aggresive' because they would become tired of their passivity, but not know how to choose to not be passive.



I guess what's coming out here is that choice can be active or passive. And people need a healthy dose of both. And knowing when to choose and when not to choose is a choice best made with introspective living.

 

[Elfboy]

What's the OT?
Your definition just sounds like a juristic or legalistic framing to suit fiscal libertarianism or capitalism, no disrespect, I think freedom existed before capitalism, capitalism limits it, and freedom will exist after capitalism has gone.

- this definition of freedom is possible in any time period as long as government doesn't restrict it. notice I didn't mention anything about money (which, in my opinion, is a means to increase tangible power, ie, what you have the ability to do in reality)
- that said, I do believe capitalism was a tremendous liberating force for the world

 

[Lark]

- this definition of freedom is possible in any time period as long as government doesn't restrict it. notice I didn't mention anything about money (which, in my opinion, is a means to increase tangible power, ie, what you have the ability to do in reality)
- that said, I do believe capitalism was a tremendous liberating force for the world

Yeah, I think you're consist in what you think. You're just not right.

 

[Elfboy]

Yeah, I think you're consist in what you think. You're just not right.

I don't see how I'm wrong, you wouldn't believe how liberating this ideology is.

PS: you? enneagram 7? nigga please!

 

[Lark]

I don't see how I'm wrong, you wouldn't believe how liberating this ideology is.

PS: you? enneagram 7? nigga please!

I thought it was you told me that I was seven, is seven the crusader or something like that? I dont really follow enneagram to be honest.

I dont really think ideologies are liberating, I definitely do not believe that any ideology which serves as a rationalisation for capitalism in quite the way that economics has could possibly be liberating.

 

[WALMART]

n't free.

 

[Elfboy]

I thought it was you told me that I was seven, is seven the crusader or something like that? I dont really follow enneagram to be honest.

noooo, you're thinking of Enneagram 1

I dont really think ideologies are liberating, I definitely do not believe that any ideology which serves as a rationalisation for capitalism in quite the way that economics has could possibly be liberating.

you will, with time

 

[Little_Sticks]

What about the comparative meaning of freedom? An introvert can see boundaries have been removed or put in place around them and feel a sense that they either have freedom or lost it. And that is something they can clearly have in their minds, something that does not involve making a choice on their part, unless you argue that not making a choice is still making a choice.