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  1. #1
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    Default Spirituality without metaphysics.

    I for one, find more spirituality in the notion of meaning and the psychology of being then metaphysics ever offered me.

    A notion I have not shared with others in a long time, and I am curious...

    Does anyone else relate to this (non-theistic or otherwise)?
    If so, in what ways can you say to have experienced spirituality without metaphysics?
    Is it even possible? Can the definition and notion of spirituality can sustain this and still be meaningful?

  2. #2
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    What are we calling metaphysical?

    Some people like to throw just about everything under that label.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    What are we calling metaphysical?

    Some people like to throw just about everything under that label.
    deities, spirits, realms, magical energies, divinations... if you want to throw in the big bang theory we can. any spirituality which depends upon a specific description, idea or belief towards the nature of the universe.

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    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    deities, spirits, realms, magical energies, divinations... if you want to throw in the big bang theory we can. any spirituality which depends upon a specific description, idea or belief towards the nature of the universe.
    Ah, ok.

    In that case I can say that I've experienced it without those things.

    Describing it in certain terms is another story all together, though. Some derivatives of Zen observe this through quietism - or shikantaza - a resting state of illuminated alertness that attaches to nothing. The practitioner achieves oneness through this without all the other stuff, because without attachment there's nothing to tag mystical energies or spirits or any explanations onto. It's just being.

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    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    yeah, just make it about real time being which is in constant flux as we move in and out of various affective states (shifted by our environment and our own chemical workings) and the synchronous connection it seems to have to arbitrary processes within reality
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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    Metaphysics seems to be based more on rationality, and spirituality seems more based upon feeling.

    Although both have their values, metaphysics could give us more knowledge, and spirituality more meaning.

    Of course, a thing must first be known before it can mean anything, hence the metaphysics comes first.

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    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Metaphysics seems to be based more on rationality, and spirituality seems more based upon feeling.

    Although both have their values, metaphysics could give us more knowledge, and spirituality more meaning.

    Of course, a thing must first be known before it can mean anything, hence the metaphysics comes first.
    It took me a minute to figure out what you actually said here.

    I'd say that metaphysics comes from a need to rationalize - not necessarily based on rationality.

    It's often used as an attempt to explain feelings, and one might say that metaphysical things are not even knowledge (well, I say they aren't)

    Yes a thing needs to be known before it means anything, but some things don't need to mean anything and some things don't need to be known. Other things are not even known, they're just made up.

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mane View Post
    I for one, find more spirituality in the notion of meaning and the psychology of being then metaphysics ever offered me.

    A notion I have not shared with others in a long time, and I am curious...

    Does anyone else relate to this (non-theistic or otherwise)?
    If so, in what ways can you say to have experienced spirituality without metaphysics?
    Is it even possible? Can the definition and notion of spirituality can sustain this and still be meaningful?
    I've known people who discussed a dichotomy between spirituality and religion years ago, some of them were actually priests, and it related to the seperation between what they felt, practiced and believed usually and history, legacies or politics which they were estranged from or alienated by.

    I've also known of some atheists who professed this dichotomy too for the reason of rejecting supernatural beliefs or order and affirming naturalistic wonders and beliefs, although sometimes it was connected with things like a western, secularised, "celebrity" buddhism too. This would be close to what you've described as a seperation between metaphysics and spirituality.

    I dont really believe in these dichotomies to be honest, myself, personally, reading some of Erich Fromm's books and trying to figure out once and for all his own thinking, being a confirmed materialist and non-believer but also affirmer of traditional religion, including eastern buddhism and traditional Judahism, was pretty rewarding when thinking about this. Perhaps it shouldnt surprise me given that Fromm was a marxist and believed in the basic idea of thesis, antithesis, synthesis, new thesis but he does seem to have been able to reconcile some opposites. While firmly rejecting supernatural believes, which he thought were idolatrous and illusion, he seemed also to reject atheism.

    Instead talking about non-theism and affirming an interpretation of Mohamides (spelling) teaching about God being non-corporeal as a kind of suggestion not to speculate about "that" any further and focus instead on the business of ethics, how to live and creating the kingdom of God as an actual existing social order in historical time as the culmination of human history.

    I do believe in a lot of metaphysics, I do believe in a lot of things, without fear or favour though, which some people dismiss as nonsense or superstition because life is better that way. There are a lot, in my opinion, of alienated and estranged people out there who'll attack it and perhaps they have reason in their personal history or find rationales from human history and politics for feeling that way too but that's fine, everyone should so far as possible without interference with anyone else live after their own fashion, breath after their own fashion, think after their own fashion. Truth cant be harmed by that.

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    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Lark

    In regards to deities and natural wonders and other 'religious' items, I have this to say:

    That which interacts with matter is physical.

    The end.

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @Lark

    In regards to deities and natural wonders and other 'religious' items, I have this to say:

    That which interacts with matter is physical.

    The end.
    I do not follow, do you mean that the dichotomy between supernatural and naturalistic is a false dichotomy?

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