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  1. #51
    Senior Member tinker683's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    So I'm diggin on Christian Deism http://christiandeism.com/archives/

    and Bahai.

    I want to like Christian Deism more because I am currently learning about Jesus and love Jesus.

    But I suspect that Bahai is really a better fit for what I believe, and have always believed--that there have been many messengers of God, and that we could all be messengers of God if we were enlightened enough. I also like that Bahai is about world peace and love. http://www.bahai.org/

    What do y'all think?
    Both sound interesting, even though they're both going against biblical and traditional thought. Christian Deism sounds like a contradiction to me though.

    Question: Do you feel either one of these possible ideas could be true because you genuinely feel they could be true or because you want them to be true?
    "The man who is swimming against the stream knows the strength of it."
    ― Woodrow Wilson

  2. #52
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tinker683 View Post
    Both sound interesting, even though they're both going against biblical and traditional thought. Christian Deism sounds like a contradiction to me though.

    Question: Do you feel either one of these possible ideas could be true because you genuinely feel they could be true or because you want them to be true?

    It would be easier to be a full-fledged Christian. I avoided my thoughts regarding Jesus' miracles and resurrection, etc., as long as I could, so I could believe and identify with a good religion. So if I wanted something to be true, it would be that.

    I have long had whisperings that Jesus was just another messenger of God, not necessary something Divine, or to be worshiped, in himself, but as a bridge to our Great Almighty. Jews feel this way about Moses, Muslims about Muhammad, Buddhists about Buddha, etc.

    I learned that depending upon one's culture, that is the religion one is most likely to get. And it's these separate religions that end up causing wars. The overlying principle or Deity above all of this is God. If people could just accept that God is the unifying factor, and accept prophets or messengers as God's chosen few, we'd be on our way to a unified religion, and a more cohesive world.

    Christian Deists just adhere to Jesus' teachings because he was simple and great, and because they largely came from North American religion, which was Christianity. I have decided I'm not really a Christian Deist myself because I'm sure other messengers said things as great as Jesus, and were righteous and holy and that the Holy Spirit spoke through them. The holy spirit has spoken through me, and possibly through you. But not to the extent of those whose entire being is all about living coram Deo and being chosen by God to be a prophet.

    I see Jesus as a friend, mentor, extension of God--perhaps even a demi-God, and even (today) as co-wife....He is God, but not God. Therefore I am conflicted about the trinity....I think the trinity is really infinity--that God can and does exist in anyone in any way at any time, but I still believe in the trinity even though it is not a deist concept. Deists tend to believe that there is not trinity, but unity (unitarianism), in one God. I see God in different levels, yet not diminished in such a capacity. Like the trinity concept, but more infinite.

    And Bahai I surfed about at work last night.....I like the newest prophet's words, Bahá’u’lláh, an Iranian man from the 1800s, but I dislike that he made a religion out of his message, just like Christians made a relgion out of Jesus' teachings. I think it's probably the closest religion, besides deism, that I believe in (at least that I am aware of as yet), but I wouldn't want to focus on this one prophet's words. I would rather study all the past prophets and messengers of God, in all the various works, so that I might know to the fullest extent possible the insight granted to humans from God. Plus my own reflection of course, which actually I prefer. Christian Deists, I read, do not usually worship in a church or group, preferring to reflect on their own. I think this is not necessarily a good idea; I think man should pray every day and worship with others weekly, but I get the gist of what they are saying.

    So far I am some sort of Prophet Deist who believes in the infinite duality of God the Father and Holy spirit, in a transcendent and immanent form.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  3. #53
    Senior Member _eric_'s Avatar
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    If you think Jesus is just a prophet, messenger, 'extension,' or anything other than God Himself, then you are claiming Him to be a liar every time He said He is God. That is what the Jews crucified Him for, the blasphemy of claiming to be God. These ideas you have here do not line up with scripture at all. Be wary of any personal revelation that goes against scripture, like these 'whisperings' you are hearing telling you this; if personal revelation goes against scripture then it is not of God and should therefore be shut out.

    Just for a quick example from a simple Google search, since I don't have anything already bookmarked that is specifically relevant:

    "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God'" (John 10:30-33).

    http://www.bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html
    http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html
    http://www.crosswalk.com/who-is-jesu...-11567468.html

    As for this 'unified religion' you want, you'd do well to stay far away from anything of the sort.

    http://raymondjclements.wordpress.co...lon-rev-17-18/

  4. #54
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by _eric_ View Post
    If you think Jesus is just a prophet, messenger, 'extension,' or anything other than God Himself, then you are claiming Him to be a liar every time He said He is God. That is what the Jews crucified Him for, the blasphemy of claiming to be God. These ideas you have here do not line up with scripture at all. Be wary of any personal revelation that goes against scripture, like these 'whisperings' you are hearing telling you this; if personal revelation goes against scripture then it is not of God and should therefore be shut out.

    Just for a quick example from a simple Google search, since I don't have anything already bookmarked that is specifically relevant:

    "'I and the Father are one.' Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus said to them, 'I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?' 'We are not stoning you for any of these,' replied the Jews, 'but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God'" (John 10:30-33).

    http://www.bugman123.com/Bible/JesusIsGod.html
    http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html
    http://www.crosswalk.com/who-is-jesu...-11567468.html

    As for this 'unified religion' you want, you'd do well to stay far away from anything of the sort.

    http://raymondjclements.wordpress.co...lon-rev-17-18/

    I'm not very confident of the historical accuracy of the bible, to be frank. I think we can believe it, but not necessary take it very literally.

    But just because Jesus might have said he was God, doesn't mean he was. Zealots were being crucified right and left for claiming the same thing, almost daily.

    You still have the problem, to my mind, of the 'miracles' and the resurrection and how when he walked around on earth for 40 days, people didn't really recognize him as Jesus. Why? Because other men were masquerading as Jesus to perpetuate the rumor, so that it could become myth. No matter what a tampered-with historical document written by his followers wrote decades after he lived says, there is just a point where you have to allow reason room to work. From there you can jump into faith.

    The fact is, that we want to adhere to Christianity because it is written into our culture....our families, our upbringing, our communities. To turn from it means to turn away from part of our roots, a very important part, and it is not surprising people would rather suspend their ability to disbelieve than to have to come up with another spiritual paradigm or worldview.

    Same with Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Jews, etc. Christians who feel that Jesus is the 'One and Only' are in good company with the rest of the worlds religions who believe in a messiah.

    I like prophets, messengers, messiahs, and think they have a lot to teach us. I just don't think we should worship them, or allow them to take the place of our God.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  5. #55
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Something I was thinking about this thread the other day, you could be impressed by Christ without being a Christian, I know Jews and Muslims who think that he was a great man or prophetic person without believing anything which could be remotely considered Christian, ie virgin birth, his mother being conceived without sin, his resurrection and assumption into heaven, there is even a secular novelisation of Jesus' life and ministry, well, there's many really but I was thinking of Kingdom of the Wicked because I was reading it recently and havent finished it.

    By no means do I think that anyone has to believe everything which has been written about Jesus, so long as they take his teachings themselves, what he said, the example of what he did, like feeding people, healing the sick, bringing hope to everyone he met and putting religious teaching at service of man instead of allowing it to become a detestable burden, and what he was, an example of human being, he got a lot packed into a short life, cut of in its prime by some real assholes who subjected him to brutal torture and a worse death.

  6. #56
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    Christianity has been stupified so it can be followed by the stupid multitudes.

    There are many truths we cannot discover within what Christ revealed alone.

    The true answers as to the nature of creation are going to be found along our own journeys and the directions we take.

    God the shephard points the sheep the safe way.

    We must however make our own path if we truly wish to reach greatness.

    We humans are capable of greatness!


  7. #57
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Something I was thinking about this thread the other day, you could be impressed by Christ without being a Christian, I know Jews and Muslims who think that he was a great man or prophetic person without believing anything which could be remotely considered Christian, ie virgin birth, his mother being conceived without sin, his resurrection and assumption into heaven, there is even a secular novelisation of Jesus' life and ministry, well, there's many really but I was thinking of Kingdom of the Wicked because I was reading it recently and havent finished it.

    By no means do I think that anyone has to believe everything which has been written about Jesus, so long as they take his teachings themselves, what he said, the example of what he did, like feeding people, healing the sick, bringing hope to everyone he met and putting religious teaching at service of man instead of allowing it to become a detestable burden, and what he was, an example of human being, he got a lot packed into a short life, cut of in its prime by some real assholes who subjected him to brutal torture and a worse death.

    But he knew this going in. He lived in this time, from his childhood on, he wandered among all kinds of people, whether he was in 'his Father's house' or living amongst the destitute in the wilderness, he knew what the culture was at the time, and he knew that Roman torture for zealots was the norm. But I've no doubt he was truly in tune with God, more than most of us will ever know. I think they tied in together though. I think that he wasn't going to stop spreading the word of God as he saw it (thank God ), but he also knew he was likely going to be tortured for it. Bible study makes it sound like Jesus had some Divine psychic ability because from his first recorded words (except the time when he was a boy and found worshiping/discussing 'in his Father's house), around the age of 30, he 'prophesied' that he was going to die, or at least intimated it. But by that time, it wouldn't have taken much for him to realize this, given his beliefs and the environment at the time. Paul and many other disciples, and indeed thousands of Christians who followed, have willingly undergone imprisonment and torture for their God, and Jesus was no different.

    So the Romans were real assholes, but they were not acting out of character. Jesus knew what he was getting himself into, but he did it anyway in his love, and zeal, for God; and possibly other, more egocentric reasons we will never know.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    Christianity has been stupified so it can be followed by the stupid multitudes.

    There are many truths we cannot discover within what Christ revealed alone.

    The true answers as to the nature of creation are going to be found along our own journeys and the directions we take.

    God the shephard points the sheep the safe way.

    We must however make our own path if we truly wish to reach greatness.

    We humans are capable of greatness!


    Only God is Great. Only God is Good.

    If we are great it is by His grace. But we are not even good yet, so we have a long way to go.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
    4w5 5w4 1w9
    ~Torah observant, Christ inspired~
    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  8. #58
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I have a pretty complicated relationship with Christianity, but I do love me some Jesus. I don't know if that stuff is literally true or not. Since that time there have been translations, additions, subtractions. But I don't really feel like I need to know. To me, being focused on the literal details of whether something happened exactly as it is written in the bible misses the point. I connect with those stories whether they happened or not, whether the red words in the bible were actually spoken by Jesus as written. The underlying truths have meaning that literal events could never have. I realize this is an unorthodox approach to Christianity, but I've been fortunate enough to find a couple of religious traditions where doubt and unorthodox approaches are welcomed. (Those traditions are Quakerism and the Episcopal church, the American wing of the Anglican communion.)

    Finding a specific congregation where doubt is welcome and you're not shamed for voicing unorthodox ideas has been a Godsend (so to speak). Neither my husband nor I connected with the first Episcopal church we started going to, the one where we were married. It was very corporate- the priest who married us was warm and we connected with her, but the priest who baptised us kept introducing himself to us when we would stay for coffee hour- this happened about 4 or 5 times, and I kept saying "yes, Steve, I know you- you baptised us, remember?" but he never remembered us.) Then about ten years ago, the three churches in my county spawned a mission church and we were among the founding members. The vicar is an Episcopal priest with a Quaker background, and I finally know what it's like to have a trusted clergy member who I can lean on in times of need and who helps me find ways to use my talents to further the church's mission. We have connected there despite our doubts and unusual ideas.

  9. #59
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    ^That all sounds interesting, @Ivy. I like me some Jesus too. I like quakers too, because the ones I know are so liberally conservative?

    I just can't get into becoming part of a church family. I feel myself recoiling with 'the peace' part of service, and think it goes on waaaayyyy too long. I cannot see those people being my friends, much less my family.
    Ni/Ti/Fe/Si
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    Life Path 11

    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

    songofmary.wordpress.com


  10. #60
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    That's how we felt at the big church where we were married. I didn't feel like the rest of the people there were like us in any way besides where we spent (some of) our Sunday mornings. It wasn't toxic or anything, just stiff. But we've loved being part of the congregation we're a part of now. We don't connect with every single person, but everyone is kind and it's not at all stiff. And we have made some actual friends there. I definitely feel like the leadership and congregation would be there for us if we needed them- I have never felt that from a church family before. The church I grew up going to was pretty toxic- they ended up drumming my parents out for a variety of stupid reasons that all basically came down to bullying. So I've always been a little church-skittish. Being a part of a real congregation has been pretty healing.

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