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  1. #21
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hmm, do you mean that if one is an athiest or agnostic but avoids wrong doing you will find God's favour?

    Perhaps, although I dont think that faith in God is like that, I think faith in God or knowledge of God is more about relief of the sorts of feelings which accompany doubt or uncertainty.
    Not quite. I don't think avoiding doing wrong is enough either since none of us are righteous. I really believe that much.

    I think that if nothing else, it involves a change of heart that must take place.

    It's paradoxical to me because I won't accept a God that goes by the legalist, prescribed rules only without taking heart into account.

    This means that just doing good is not good enough, and just believing the scriptures is not good enough either.

  2. #22
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Rob Bell, who I consider an evangelical protestant, has proven that this is not biblically or scripturally based.
    That is good to know. I will have to look into it.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That is good to know. I will have to look into it.
    His book Love Wins covers it, the audiobook adaptation is alright but really an introduction to the book, he has published study guides and other material associated with Love Wins too. His views have divided the evangelical scene in the US and its satellites. It makes a lot of sense, although I wouldnt be a follower of Bell's or subscribe to all his views.

  4. #24
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Not quite. I don't think avoiding doing wrong is enough either since none of us are righteous. I really believe that much.

    I think that if nothing else, it involves a change of heart that must take place.

    It's paradoxical to me because I won't accept a God that goes by the legalist, prescribed rules only without taking heart into account.

    This means that just doing good is not good enough, and just believing the scriptures is not good enough either.
    I know I've mentioned it before, but I've always liked Lewis' "The Last Battle," and the whole approach between Aslan and Tash, where some who claimed to serve Aslan were actually aligned with Tash's heart, and vice versa. The problem is that knowledge isn't really the issue; knowledge is distorted all the time in this world, and we will never know "enough" to be perfectly consciously aligned. It's funny how often people in this world kill each other because they disagree on doctrine.

    But I think our hearts and attitudes and behavior more accurately describe our character, than any verbalized doctrinal statement. Articulated doctrine is just stagnant words carved in stone, whereas real truth is living and breathing and flows through people and drives their actions and responses. We often can't even put the truth into words, we can only live it out.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #25
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Not quite. I don't think avoiding doing wrong is enough either since none of us are righteous. I really believe that much.

    I think that if nothing else, it involves a change of heart that must take place.

    It's paradoxical to me because I won't accept a God that goes by the legalist, prescribed rules only without taking heart into account.

    This means that just doing good is not good enough, and just believing the scriptures is not good enough either.
    I do believe that the important questions of this life are to do with ethics and what sorts of ethics are prescribed by or pleasing to God are very important, I do believe in legalism but I dont believe it is sufficient, if God was a serious legalist then there would be much more divine intervention of an obvious kind in life and not simply the possibility of it after death. There is forgiveness and love, like Rob Bell says love wins.

  6. #26
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    His book Love Wins covers it, the audiobook adaptation is alright but really an introduction to the book, he has published study guides and other material associated with Love Wins too. His views have divided the evangelical scene in the US and its satellites. It makes a lot of sense, although I wouldnt be a follower of Bell's or subscribe to all his views.
    Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember seeing stuff about that. Probably should have made more of an impression on me than it did. I think I figured since I wasn't deciding who went where in the afterlife and none of us could really know anyway, it wasn't worth getting excited about. This is why you will never see me calling myself spiritual, but not religious.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  7. #27
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I know I've mentioned it before, but I've always liked Lewis' "The Last Battle," and the whole approach between Aslan and Tash, where some who claimed to serve Aslan were actually aligned with Tash's heart, and vice versa. The problem is that knowledge isn't really the issue; knowledge is distorted all the time in this world, and we will never know "enough" to be perfectly consciously aligned. It's funny how often people in this world kill each other because they disagree on doctrine.

    But I think our hearts and attitudes and behavior more accurately describe our character, than any verbalized doctrinal statement. Articulated doctrine is just stagnant words carved in stone, whereas real truth is living and breathing and flows through people and drives their actions and responses. We often can't even put the truth into words, we can only live it out.
    Right.

    This is why my faith is that if there is a God, God will know exactly what to do with me when I meet him. I mean I'm just such a little speck with my human mind that it is ridiculous.

    But in the end I'd rather have God say "You know what, you honestly tried. In spite of all difficulties, you really tried. I welcome you."

    Instead of "You thought you had it right. You thought you knew me, but you were wrong. You were spiteful, self righteous, and self absorbed. Go away from me."

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Right. This is why my faith is that if there is a God, God will know exactly what to do with me when I meet him. I mean I'm just such a little speck with my human mind that it is ridiculous.
    This is why I think that a lot of our religion and trying list a bunch of rules and then following them to show our worth is just a silly endeavor. Well-meant? Perhaps. But absurd. It's like our attempt to control our own savory-ness in the eyes of some higher being so that we can get good things. it's beyond us to ensure that, if there is some higher deity, we will find favor and be selected for life.

    But in the end I'd rather have God say "You know what, you honestly tried. In spite of all difficulties, you really tried. I welcome you."

    Instead of "You thought you had it right. You thought you knew me, but you were wrong. You were spiteful, self righteous, and self absorbed. Go away from me."
    Yes. Matthew 7.

    I have this prayer attributed to Thomas Merton hanging on my bulletin board at work:

    MY LORD GOD, I have no idea where I am going. I do not see the road ahead of me. I cannot know for certain where it will end. Nor do I really know myself, and the fact that I think that I am following your will does not mean that I am actually doing so. But I believe that the desire to please you does in fact please you. And I hope I have that desire in all that I am doing. I hope that I will never do anything apart from that desire. And I know that if I do this you will lead me by the right road though I may know nothing about it. Therefore will I trust you always though I may seem to be lost and in the shadow of death. I will not fear, for you are ever with me, and you will never leave me to face my perils alone.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    Now that you mention it, I vaguely remember seeing stuff about that. Probably should have made more of an impression on me than it did. I think I figured since I wasn't deciding who went where in the afterlife and none of us could really know anyway, it wasn't worth getting excited about. This is why you will never see me calling myself spiritual, but not religious.


    I used to be the same. I think I know what you mean.

  10. #30
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    This is why I think that a lot of our religion and trying list a bunch of rules and then following them to show our worth is just a silly endeavor. Well-meant? Perhaps. But absurd. It's like our attempt to control our own savory-ness in the eyes of some higher being so that we can get good things. it's beyond us to ensure that, if there is some higher deity, we will find favor and be selected for life.



    Yes. Matthew 7.

    I have this prayer attributed to Thomas Merton hanging on my bulletin board at work:
    I think I can legitimately say 'amen' to that. That's very rare for me to do, so take it for what it is.

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