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  1. #21
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I think you're confusing the distinction between a warrior knight and the professional soldier that emerged with the modern state. Chivalry in many ways is a further development of the earlier "pure and simple" type of warriorship found among the Germanic tribes of Europe by being fused with the traditions of the Christian faith and along with it the Classical world.
    I consider that a further development or stage in the same thing as what I'm talking about but it is possible to consider it as something apart from warriorship per se, I know what you mean.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I consider that a further development or stage in the same thing as what I'm talking about but it is possible to consider it as something apart from warriorship per se, I know what you mean.
    I think I understand what you're arguing here. I guess in many we could make a distinction between "tribal" forms of warriorship and "feudal" forms of such. The Germanic warriors I mentioned before, along with say Native American tribes, or even Scottish Highlanders would be examples of tribal warriors. Whereas knights, samurai, and kshatriya would be examples of "feudal" warriors. They manifest different forms of the same basic concept; and together both would be distinguishable against the professional soldier.

  3. #23
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I think I understand what you're arguing here. I guess in many we could make a distinction between "tribal" forms of warriorship and "feudal" forms of such. The Germanic warriors I mentioned before, along with say Native American tribes, or even Scottish Highlanders would be examples of tribal warriors. Whereas knights, samurai, and kshatriya would be examples of "feudal" warriors. They manifest different forms of the same basic concept; and together both would be distinguishable against the professional soldier.
    I do think that warriors are different from soldiers, soldiers and soldiering were and are a result of the "industrialisation" of warfare and fighting, although I think that warriors in the sense of knights and samuari were distinct from the chaotic and warring states periods which preduate them and in which they had their origins.

    I'm thinking about the way in which knighthood and feudalism unfolded in the british isles rather than across europe or in the case of the teutonic (spelling) knights, in the british isles and brittany at least knighthood did evolve increasingly elaborate suits of armour and regalia which were not actually a good idea for fighting but which distinguished status groups and individuals of status, accompanied by development of systems of ransom and trade offs replaced single combat.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I do think that warriors are different from soldiers, soldiers and soldiering were and are a result of the "industrialisation" of warfare and fighting, although I think that warriors in the sense of knights and samuari were distinct from the chaotic and warring states periods which preduate them and in which they had their origins.

    I'm thinking about the way in which knighthood and feudalism unfolded in the british isles rather than across europe or in the case of the teutonic (spelling) knights, in the british isles and brittany at least knighthood did evolve increasingly elaborate suits of armour and regalia which were not actually a good idea for fighting but which distinguished status groups and individuals of status, accompanied by development of systems of ransom and trade offs replaced single combat.
    Industrialism certainly played a role, but I think the "rationalization" of power played the even greater key role here. Much of the basis for the modern military system was in place in the 18th century and was expanded during the French Revolution and Napoleonic Wars, which was before industrialism really made its mark on warfare(with the Crimean War being the first real industrial war).

    In what way would you mark the distinction between feudalism and tribal warfare? In many ways Feudalism follows a similar method as tribal warfare but on a more complex level. The structure of feudalism could even be compared to "complex chiefdoms".

    Well the elaborate suits of armour you mentioned came about when knighthood became more ceremonial and less about actual military performance. This first begins to emerge in the 16th century when knights are being overtaken by more effective infantry like the Landsknechts, pikemen, and even earlier riflemen. Nobility was also divorced from military service(although it was still vital for advanced command up til the French Revolution).

  5. #25
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Honor in their actions.

    Desmond Thomas Doss was the first conscientious objector to receive the Medal of Honor in combat.

    He was drafted in 1942 and expressly refused to kill anyone because of his religion, so he became a combat medic. He was awarded the Medal of Honor in 1945 for risking his life in combat to save other lives.

    Citation:

    He was a company aid man when the 1st Battalion assaulted a jagged escarpment 400 feet (120 m) high. As our troops gained the summit, a heavy concentration of artillery, mortar and machinegun fire crashed into them, inflicting approximately 75 casualties and driving the others back. Pfc. Doss refused to seek cover and remained in the fire-swept area with the many stricken, carrying all 75 casualties one-by-one to the edge of the escarpment and there lowering them on a rope-supported litter down the face of a cliff to friendly hands. On May 2, he exposed himself to heavy rifle and mortar fire in rescuing a wounded man 200 yards (180 m) forward of the lines on the same escarpment; and 2 days later he treated 4 men who had been cut down while assaulting a strongly defended cave, advancing through a shower of grenades to within 8 yards (7.3 m) of enemy forces in a cave's mouth, where he dressed his comrades' wounds before making 4 separate trips under fire to evacuate them to safety. On May 5, he unhesitatingly braved enemy shelling and small arms fire to assist an artillery officer. He applied bandages, moved his patient to a spot that offered protection from small arms fire and, while artillery and mortar shells fell close by, painstakingly administered plasma. Later that day, when an American was severely wounded by fire from a cave, Pfc. Doss crawled to him where he had fallen 25 feet (7.6 m) from the enemy position, rendered aid, and carried him 100 yards (91 m) to safety while continually exposed to enemy fire. On May 21, in a night attack on high ground near Shuri, he remained in exposed territory while the rest of his company took cover, fearlessly risking the chance that he would be mistaken for an infiltrating Japanese and giving aid to the injured until he was himself seriously wounded in the legs by the explosion of a grenade. Rather than call another aid man from cover, he cared for his own injuries and waited 5 hours before litter bearers reached him and started carrying him to cover. The trio was caught in an enemy tank attack and Pfc. Doss, seeing a more critically wounded man nearby, crawled off the litter; and directed the bearers to give their first attention to the other man. Awaiting the litter bearers' return, he was again struck, by a sniper bullet while being carried off the field by a comrade, this time suffering a compound fracture of 1 arm. With magnificent fortitude he bound a rifle stock to his shattered arm as a splint and then crawled 300 yards (270 m) over rough terrain to the aid station. Through his outstanding bravery and unflinching determination in the face of desperately dangerous conditions Pfc. Doss saved the lives of many soldiers. His name became a symbol throughout the 77th Infantry Division for outstanding gallantry far above and beyond the call of duty.


    Or Hilliard A. Wilbanks, who was an FAC in Vietnam, flying an unarmed recon plane. From his position up in the plane, he saw an enemy force about to ambush some Rangers and knew that nobody would get there in time to save them, so he drew fire with his own unarmed plane in order to warn them and save their lives.

    Citation:

    For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty. As a forward air controller Capt. Wilbanks was pilot of an unarmed, light aircraft flying visual reconnaissance ahead of a South Vietnam Army Ranger Battalion. His intensive search revealed a well-concealed and numerically superior hostile force poised to ambush the advancing rangers. The Viet Cong, realizing that Capt. Wilbanks' discovery had compromised their position and ability to launch a surprise attack, immediately fired on the small aircraft with all available firepower. The enemy then began advancing against the exposed forward elements of the ranger force which were pinned down by devastating fire. Capt. Wilbanks recognized that close support aircraft could not arrive in time to enable the rangers to withstand the advancing enemy onslaught. With full knowledge of the limitations of his unarmed, unarmored, light reconnaissance aircraft, and the great danger imposed by the enemy's vast firepower, he unhesitatingly assumed a covering, close support role. Flying through a hail of withering fire at treetop level, Capt. Wilbanks passed directly over the advancing enemy and inflicted many casualties by firing his rifle out of the side window of his aircraft. Despite increasingly intense antiaircraft fire, Capt. Wilbanks continued to completely disregard his own safety and made repeated low passes over the enemy to divert their fire away from the rangers. His daring tactics successfully interrupted the enemy advance, allowing the rangers to withdraw to safety from their perilous position. During his final courageous attack to protect the withdrawing forces, Capt. Wilbanks was mortally wounded and his bullet-riddled aircraft crashed between the opposing forces. Capt. Wilbanks' magnificent action saved numerous friendly personnel from certain injury or death. His unparalleled concern for his fellow man and his extraordinary heroism were in the highest traditions of the military service, and have reflected great credit upon himself and the U.S. Air Force.

  6. #26
    Gone Aesthete's Avatar
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    A warrior must be in constant touch with their missions and goals. A warrior will see life as more of a means to accomplish a goal, rather than giving it intrinsic value itself. Whether the battle is within or outside oneself, the warrior will only be satisfied once the mission is complete.
    Great men are like eagles, and build their nest on some lofty solitude.

    Schopenhauer

  7. #27
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    I think the warrior mindset is the most important thing.

    When facing an opponent the only thing that should exist in the warriors mind is that opponent, and the will to defeat them.

    Nothing exists except that battle and either defeat or victory.

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