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  1. #81

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I agree with Beorn. An ahistorical understanding of the faith leads to some very dark corners.
    I agree with that, I just was not convinced by what Beorn said that what we are discussing is ahistorical, rather I would say it is stuck in a moment. One which has solidly past and been forgotten by everyone else.

    Although perhaps I'm hailing from one of the only parts of the world were this could be true, I suspect not because I've encountered the Alpha course and a lot of other evangelical discourse from the states, granted it comes through local filters but I dont see its solo-scriptural and other foundations as ahistorical, most of it would make no sense to the first christians or even those less remote from this reformation dateline origins and it certainly makes little sense of the modern world or people who post-date christianity per se.

  2. #82
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Perhaps that's part of it but they do have a tradition in so far as they attempt to repeat and keep on repeating the actions of their founders and the early years of protestantism.
    No. They're totally detached from the founders. The reformation leaders were rooted in the bible, but they were also rooted in Creeds and Saints leading up to Aquinas.

    Most protestants I know dont know a counter reformation happened or dismiss it as propaganda, they'll profess most of the beliefs of Luther and Calvin as though everyone else has lived in perfect ignorance of them or their legacies and as though neither the RCC, nor the world has changed a bit from the day and hour the bull was burned and the points nailed to the Church door.
    I think you must have a very different perspective being from NI. In america I'd be surprised if many nondenominational Protestants are even aware of Calvin and Luther and what they taught on the most elementary level. That's why I think it's so weird that you tie together reformation beliefs with all the problems of modern evangelicalism when most are so detached from the beliefs and practices of the reformers.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  3. #83
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    No. They're totally detached from the founders. The reformation leaders were rooted in the bible, but they were also rooted in Creeds and Saints leading up to Aquinas.
    Even some of the finest Church historians were Protestants, most prominent I can think of being Adolf Harnack and Ernst Troeltsch. Troeltsch even spoke fondly of several aspects of Medieval Christianity, even though it may not suit a Christianity addressing modern concerns.

    I think you must have a very different perspective being from NI. In america I'd be surprised if many nondenominational Protestants are even aware of Calvin and Luther and what they taught on the most elementary level. That's why I think it's so weird that you tie together reformation beliefs with all the problems of modern evangelicalism when most are so detached from the beliefs and practices of the reformers.
    Well I could see the argument for non-denominationalism being a further development of Protestantism; I think overall there's plenty of stark contrast between them and mainline Churches which still maintain historical links like the Nicene Creed. Much of Evangelicalism bears little resemblance to kind professed by Niebuhr for example. If we even want to add the Rapture into this mix, not only are mainline Protestants very critical of the concept, it dates to only the 19th century.

  4. #84
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Even some of the finest Church historians were Protestants, most prominent I can think of being Adolf Harnack and Ernst Troeltsch. Troeltsch even spoke fondly of several aspects of Medieval Christianity, even though it may not suit a Christianity addressing modern concerns.
    That's interesting. I did not know that.

    Well I could see the argument for non-denominationalism being a further development of Protestantism; I think overall there's plenty of stark contrast between them and mainline Churches which still maintain historical links like the Nicene Creed. Much of Evangelicalism bears little resemblance to kind professed by Niebuhr for example. If we even want to add the Rapture into this mix, not only are mainline Protestants very critical of the concept, it dates to only the 19th century.
    Right. I could see a slippery slope argument being made, but I think it's a big stretch to say they are repeating the actions of the reformation fathers.

    Incidentally I'm not mainline, but my denomination is a direct split off from a mainline denomination so I still tie my church back to that tradition even if I don't have a cool old church building.

    Edit: lol. I just realized that last paragraph IS an example of repeating what the reformation fathers did.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  5. #85
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    That's interesting. I did not know that.
    Here's more info on Troeltsch and his works. He was also a close colleague of Max Weber, and partook in disputes within the Baden school of Neo-Kantianism.
    http://people.bu.edu/wwildman/bce/troeltsch.htm

    Right. I could see a slippery slope argument being made, but I think it's a big stretch to say they are repeating the actions of the reformation fathers.
    Ultimately I would agree with that. It's a long stretch to connect Luther or Calvin to what we see today.

    Incidentally I'm not mainline, but my denomination is a direct split off from a mainline denomination so I still tie my church back to that tradition even if I don't have a cool old church building.
    Is your denomination high-church?

  6. #86
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    Is your denomination high-church?
    We're Presbyterian and that issue is largely up to the local church so it varies across the denomination. The denomination has seen large growth over the past two decades largely by taking on former nondenominationals and baptists. Thus while I think all the churches are more conscious of liturgy than nondenominationals most still tend to be closer toward the low-church end of the spectrum even if we don't put on full-on rock concerts like mega-churches and emergent churches. At my own church we've been having a heck of a time just getting the congregation to even go along with traditional weekly communion. We also make little to no use out of a congregant who is a very talented organist and music director at a catholic church. However, we did put our foot down when it came to using recorded music which only made sense given the large pool of talented musicians we have due to our proximity to a world class music school.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  7. #87
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We're Presbyterian and that issue is largely up to the local church so it varies across the denomination. The denomination has seen large growth over the past two decades largely by taking on former nondenominationals and baptists. Thus while I think all the churches are more conscious of liturgy than nondenominationals most still tend to be closer toward the low-church end of the spectrum even if we don't put on full-on rock concerts like mega-churches and emergent churches. At my own church we've been having a heck of a time just getting the congregation to even go along with traditional weekly communion. We also make little to no use out of a congregant who is a very talented organist and music director at a catholic church. However, we did put our foot down when it came to using recorded music which only made sense given the large pool of talented musicians we have due to our proximity to a world class music school.
    I'm usually more sympathetic to the High-Church faction. Ideally I'm thinking something like this:

  8. #88
    LL P. Stewie Beorn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    I'm usually more sympathetic to the High-Church faction. Ideally I'm thinking something like this:
    Was there any difference between that and a traditional catholic mass? I will say that was much more traditional than modern catholic masses I've been to where we sang Protestant songs with RC words substituted. Lol.

    It was a great service, but I think there's a bit of populism in our republican/bottom-up government that makes it difficult to maintain that level of service. Not to mention the historical Presbyterian tradition of having more stripped down and simple services even to the extent of the reformed Presbyterians who only sing psalms and forbid all instruments. That of course goes back to our emphasis on biblical teaching over tradition and led to the development of the regulative principle which states that you can't have anything in a worship service that God didn't specifically allow.
    Take the weakest thing in you
    And then beat the bastards with it
    And always hold on when you get love
    So you can let go when you give it

  9. #89
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Was there any difference between that and a traditional catholic mass?
    Well there were more altar girls. Well that's a Rite of Sarum mass, which is distinct from the Tridentine Mass. Sarum Rite is more distinctly English for example. There are different rites of masses, often corresponding to different rites of the Church overall.

    I will say that was much more traditional than modern catholic masses I've been to where we sang Protestant songs with RC words substituted. Lol.
    I know, we even have "Our God is a Mighty Fortress" in our hymnals. Talk about irony there!

    It was a great service, but I think there's a bit of populism in our republican/bottom-up government that makes it difficult to maintain that level of service. Not to mention the historical Presbyterian tradition of having more stripped down and simple services even to the extent of the reformed Presbyterians who only sing psalms and forbid all instruments. That of course goes back to our emphasis on biblical teaching over tradition and led to the development of the regulative principle which states that you can't have anything in a worship service that God didn't specifically allow.
    I've only once been to a Presbyterian service, and I rather enjoyed it. They must've known I was visiting, since they opened with one of my favorite hymns. Wasn't as elaborate as the mass I posted above, but it was still beautiful in its own right.

  10. #90
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