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  1. #131
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    There is a lot of symmetry and perfectly constructed opposites in your thinking. You seek to create a sense of balance by bringing absolute extremes together. By taking each concept to its extreme, you inadvertently dismiss all individual specificity of how both concepts are reasonably and compassionately applied.
    Insightful.
    Quote Originally Posted by fia View Post
    I'm wondering if some of your assumptions result from the whole inferior Se aspect of being an INFJ.
    The extremism points in this direction.
    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I have realized my best road is hard to determine on my own without a guide of some sort. I have tried many types of guides in the form of self-help books, dabbling in new age religiosity, and using my intuition. They all help some, but I was lacking a sound framework which I found in God and His word, which acquainted me with Jesus and His life. So, to be my best, I need not only my own flavor and intuition and style(because we are all so different!), but I need a sound framework to follow. I think we all do.
    My reading is this: you are someone who likes to be told what to do. You enjoy abandoning responsibility for your actions and allowing a "higher" authority to do your thinking for you. This is just intellectual laziness which you are seeking to elevate to spiritual enlightenment. Religion is a trap for people like you. A comfortable trap. An opiate that absolves you from wrongdoing and wrong thinking.
    Nothing precious is so easily won. Certainly not true enlightenment and self-knowledge.

    By giving responsibility to God to provide you with a partner you don't have to ask yourself important questions. You don't have to do anything but "submit to His will".

    If this works for you, then fine.
    The trouble is, unless it's universally true, you don't really have a sound basis for believing it, which is why you must attempt to convert others. You must realise that this is only going to go one way though -it's only going to isolate you further and make you more dependent on your religious crutch.

    I'm not sure how you have managed to interpret scripture in such a non-heteronormative light. It's very ... creative of you.
    I seem to remember lots of verses about homosexuals being burned in a lake of fire....

    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post

    God/Agape--------/-------------/--------------/-----------------/------------/------lusty love
    First of all, Love is not a continuum, it comes in different flavours. Your confusion arises from the limitations of English. If you have looked into the Greek (in which the New Testament is mostly written) you will know that in addition to agape (wide-open love), there is philia (for friends), storge (for family) and Eros (from which we derive erotic).

    These are different emotions and it is inappropriate to conflate them. To do so is to suggest that if we love something/one more, we will inevitable pass through a phase of sexual longing for them. Which is distasteful if we are talking about family members and (presumably) blasphemous if we are talking about God.

    Who do you think gave us lust/eros? If you believe in a Creator, necessarily you must believe that lust is a gift from God. Provided for the purposes of procreation. Which is only possible between male and female... Who are you to denigrate it and suggest it is somehow inferior? Do you know more than your Creator?

    Sex without love can be fully consensual; sex without lust (or sexual desire) is tantamount to rape.
    This puts it higher on the 'hierarchy' of loves within sexual union than love, in my view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This is just intellectual laziness which you are seeking to elevate to spiritual enlightenment. Religion is a trap for people like you. A comfortable trap. An opiate that absolves you from wrongdoing and wrong thinking.
    It really must be tough to be so much better than those whose views on life differ from your own.

    What lead you to the conclusion that your answer was the only answer?

  3. #133
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    Welcome to the realm of subjectivity Fi. Nice to see you stretching your wings here.
    I dont think you need Fi to understand that people have their own realities.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  4. #134
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    My reading is this: you are someone who likes to be told what to do. You enjoy abandoning responsibility for your actions and allowing a "higher" authority to do your thinking for you. This is just intellectual laziness which you are seeking to elevate to spiritual enlightenment. Religion is a trap for people like you. A comfortable trap. An opiate that absolves you from wrongdoing and wrong thinking.
    Nothing precious is so easily won. Certainly not true enlightenment and self-knowledge.

    By giving responsibility to God to provide you with a partner you don't have to ask yourself important questions. You don't have to do anything but "submit to His will".
    IMO there's another wrinkle here, and it's once I see in a lot of evangelical types. On one hand they want to be absolved of responsibility by relying on being led by God's will in all ways. But on the other, they still want to do what they want to do, they just claim they've received a sign or that God spoke to them during prayer that what they want is also God's will. When you claim to have personal revelations of God's will, and it pretty much lines up with your own, something is off. I saw this all the time in the churches I grew up in. It's what caused me to leave Christianity as a teen/young adult. Finding out later there are actually churches where people don't do that, and where doubt (even heavy doubt) is understood and welcome, brought me back. Although the people who worship like that would disagree that I'm truly "back" when I'm not even 100% certain there is a God at all. I still find value in the questions and the community and the liturgy.

  5. #135
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    IMO there's another wrinkle here, and it's once I see in a lot of evangelical types. On one hand they want to be absolved of responsibility by relying on being led by God's will in all ways. But on the other, they still want to do what they want to do, they just claim they've received a sign or that God spoke to them during prayer that what they want is also God's will. When you claim to have personal revelations of God's will, and it pretty much lines up with your own, something is off. I saw this all the time in the churches I grew up in. It's what caused me to leave Christianity as a teen/young adult. Finding out later there are actually churches where people don't do that, and where doubt (even heavy doubt) is understood and welcome, brought me back. Although the people who worship like that would disagree that I'm truly "back" when I'm not even 100% certain there is a God at all. I still find value in the questions and the community and the liturgy.
    That stuff drives me nuts. What can you say when someone has a mandate from God? It's the ultimate trump card because it's completely subjective.

    The flip side of the same thing is that if you want to do the right thing, you have to have God communicate with you somehow. I believe God can and does speak to people, but I don't think it's necessarily on demand. It's not like he's a Magic 8 Ball in the sky or something. So here you are needing to make a decision about something and praying about it, etc and you got nothing. What do you do about that? I was taught that it meant I just hadn't prayed hard enough or long enough or I needed to fast or I had sin in my life or something like that.

    That caused me *so* much distress as a young adult. If I knew then what I know now, I'd probably have a bachelors. Instead I was waiting for God to tell me what to do when I grew up. So I have an A.A. in general studies. I wish someone had told me to pray and keep an open mind, but use my brain and counsel from people I respected to make the best decisions I could.

    I hate that you're supposed to just magically know all this stuff, but I guess I'm glad I can't make myself make it up or convince myself God is telling me to do something when it's really what I want to do. Sometimes I do envy that ability, though. It must be nice to not constantly doubt yourself and God and everything. Deluded maybe, but nice.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
    ~ John Rogers

  6. #136
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    What if I said I rejected the concept that lusty love is the least pure? I can understand God's love being the most pure, but why do we place lusty love on the complete opposite? What is the inherent quality of lust that is impure?
    What would you recommend going at the other end? It has to be some sort of impure love.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    IMO there's another wrinkle here, and it's once I see in a lot of evangelical types. On one hand they want to be absolved of responsibility by relying on being led by God's will in all ways. But on the other, they still want to do what they want to do, they just claim they've received a sign or that God spoke to them during prayer that what they want is also God's will. When you claim to have personal revelations of God's will, and it pretty much lines up with your own, something is off. I saw this all the time in the churches I grew up in. It's what caused me to leave Christianity as a teen/young adult. Finding out later there are actually churches where people don't do that, and where doubt (even heavy doubt) is understood and welcome, brought me back. Although the people who worship like that would disagree that I'm truly "back" when I'm not even 100% certain there is a God at all. I still find value in the questions and the community and the liturgy.
    I am new to having faith again and haven't been in the church as an adult, but I could see people doing this.

    I guess if someone wants to say something (regarding them) is God's will, and it isn't harmful to others, then ce la vi. As for determining if something is God's will for me, I go by feeling, intuition, and fruits. If it feels good over time, if my intuition tells me it is grooving, and if I see tasty fruit come forth from it, then I think those are signs that it is God's will.

    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    That stuff drives me nuts. What can you say when someone has a mandate from God? It's the ultimate trump card because it's completely subjective.

    The flip side of the same thing is that if you want to do the right thing, you have to have God communicate with you somehow. I believe God can and does speak to people, but I don't think it's necessarily on demand. It's not like he's a Magic 8 Ball in the sky or something. So here you are needing to make a decision about something and praying about it, etc and you got nothing. What do you do about that? I was taught that it meant I just hadn't prayed hard enough or long enough or I needed to fast or I had sin in my life or something like that.

    That caused me *so* much distress as a young adult. If I knew then what I know now, I'd probably have a bachelors. Instead I was waiting for God to tell me what to do when I grew up. So I have an A.A. in general studies. I wish someone had told me to pray and keep an open mind, but use my brain and counsel from people I respected to make the best decisions I could.

    I hate that you're supposed to just magically know all this stuff, but I guess I'm glad I can't make myself make it up or convince myself God is telling me to do something when it's really what I want to do. Sometimes I do envy that ability, though. It must be nice to not constantly doubt yourself and God and everything. Deluded maybe, but nice.
    Pertinent points. Thank you.

    I think overall it just takes time in living coram Deo to know and hear what God is telling me. It's not something I can just turn on and off when I'm struggling [not saying you are saying this, just sayin' ] It's like any relationship: The more time you put into it and the more you communicate effectively, the closer you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post

    My reading is this: you are someone who likes to be told what to do.
    You have no idea.

    You enjoy abandoning responsibility for your actions and allowing a "higher" authority to do your thinking for you.
    If that were the case, then I never would have become an atheist at 19-41 I don't think.

    This is just intellectual laziness which you are seeking to elevate to spiritual enlightenment. Religion is a trap for people like you. A comfortable trap. An opiate that absolves you from wrongdoing and wrong thinking.
    Nothing precious is so easily won. Certainly not true enlightenment and self-knowledge.
    I am intellectually lazy often. But I am basically a skeptic and not easily swayed--I like to do my own research and make my own decisions, and I don't lock down on ideas until I'm extremely sure about them, and even then I will reopen a door when appropriate evidence is forthcoming.

    My walk with God and Christ hasn't been easy for me. Yet I felt compelled to keep leaning toward Him. Because that is just how fulfilled he makes me.

    By giving responsibility to God to provide you with a partner you don't have to ask yourself important questions. You don't have to do anything but "submit to His will".
    What important questions should I be asking?

    If this works for you, then fine.
    The trouble is, unless it's universally true, you don't really have a sound basis for believing it, which is why you must attempt to convert others. You must realise that this is only going to go one way though -it's only going to isolate you further and make you more dependent on your religious crutch.
    ? I'm not trying to convert others. I'm bearing witness to my conversion and the changes God has made in me that have been life-changing, so that others might benefit from knowing God as well.

    I am fine being isolated with God. God is love. If loving compassionately, and attempting to love unconditionally, isolates me, then isn't that more a reflection on our pathetic world than on me doing something wrong?

    I'm not sure how you have managed to interpret scripture in such a non-heteronormative light. It's very ... creative of you.
    I seem to remember lots of verses about homosexuals being burned in a lake of fire....
    I'm not a bible expert. The verses I've seen leave a lot open for interpretation.

    First of all, Love is not a continuum, it comes in different flavours. Your confusion arises from the limitations of English. If you have looked into the Greek (in which the New Testament is mostly written) you will know that in addition to agape (wide-open love), there is philia (for friends), storge (for family) and Eros (from which we derive erotic).
    My feisty girl likes to fight. *hiss and spit* I said, love, that there are different kinds of love. But there are also different degrees of love. More pure love and less pure love, depending upon the health of the person loving. If you know another, better, paradigm for describing the love phenomenon, then please share.

    These are different emotions and it is inappropriate to conflate them. To do so is to suggest that if we love something/one more, we will inevitable pass through a phase of sexual longing for them. Which is distasteful if we are talking about family members and (presumably) blasphemous if we are talking about God.
    I think we need to separate the concept of love from the concept of lust and sexual desire. Love may include sexual longing, or it may not. It really depends upon the situation, the type of love, and the parties involved.

    Who do you think gave us lust/eros? If you believe in a Creator, necessarily you must believe that lust is a gift from God. Provided for the purposes of procreation. Which is only possible between male and female... Who are you to denigrate it and suggest it is somehow inferior? Do you know more than your Creator?
    This is my favorite part of your post. I absolutely believe that God gave me sexual urges and wants me to use them (appropriately), and to derive the utmost pleasure in using them. But not just for procreation (are you Catholic?), otherwise I'd only have orgasms when I conceived. Eros isn't lust. It's romantic love, that usually involves sexual urges. No love has to culminate in sex, no matter how pure, or impure it is. But sex needs to flow out of love.

    Sex without love can be fully consensual; sex without lust (or sexual desire) is tantamount to rape.
    This puts it higher on the 'hierarchy' of loves within sexual union than love, in my view.
    Two people lusting does not make it love. God is love. Lusting is not of God, but of the enemy, which takes us away from love and away from God.

    Rape is a sin. Lust isn't necessarily, it's just not in the guidebook for living coram Deo, living within the the will of God.
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  7. #137
    veteran attention whore Jeffster's Avatar
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    Another good thread. I agree that our identities should be based on more than who we are attracted to sexually. (I'm assuming that was one of the points you were making, because it seems like it is.)
    Jeffster Illustrates the Artisan Temperament <---- click here

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  8. #138
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeffster View Post
    Another good thread. I agree that our identities should be based on more than who we are attracted to sexually. (I'm assuming that was one of the points you were making, because it seems like it is.)
    Thanks, Jeffster. You're looking very distinguised.

    Just tired of the sex everywhere, for sex's sake. The celebration of sex, hotness, fitness, etc. I think those things are awesome, but within appropriate bounds of loving relationship, not just thrown out there and spilling all over the place.

    Sex sells, but it doesn't mean we have to buy into it.

    EDIT: lol. I was thinking this was the other thread I started on sexual immorality.....But yeah, you said it well.
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    The more one loves God, the more it is that having nothing in the world means everything, and the less one loves God, the more it is that having everything in the world means nothing.

    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  9. #139
    Member zulidadwi's Avatar
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    well...your point of view about sexual identity and how to love are a unique one. *That makes a lot of to thinks*

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by zulidadwi View Post
    well...your point of view about sexual identity and how to love are a unique one. *That makes a lot of to thinks*
    Yes, beliefs aren't set in stone, this does make a lot to think.

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