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Thread: Objectivism

  1. #61
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Let us look closer at this "objectivist" pamphletism.

    The Randists claim that if you give money to the rich, the poor get money by the side.
    This is mathematically impossible.

    Liza and Tom are siblings. Liza has one dollar and Tommy has nine dollars.
    A good Randist, is Liza. She gives her sole dollar to Tommy. Tommy has now ten dollars.
    How many dollars Liza has? None.

    Money is printed all the time.
    That is because it is paper, and paper tends to become wasted and torn when it changes hands.
    Only so much money is printed as is wasted and torn.
    If you print more money than that, does the money retain its value?
    It is inflated. The value of the original money stays the same.

    They did print extra money in Germany in the 20s. We all know what happened.
    Hitler happened.

    If you give more money to the rich, there is less money for the poor.
    Money does not increase when it changes hands.

    Vice versa. If you give more money to the poor, there is less money for the rich.
    This is why the rich vouch for Ayn Rand.

  2. #62
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Let us look closer at this "objectivist" pamphletism.

    The Randists claim that if you give money to the rich, the poor get money by the side.
    This is mathematically impossible.

    Liza and Tom are siblings. Liza has one dollar and Tommy has nine dollars.
    A good Randist, is Liza. She gives her sole dollar to Tommy. Tommy has now ten dollars.
    How many dollars Liza has? None.

    Money is printed all the time.
    That is because it is paper, and paper tends to become wasted and torn when it changes hands.
    Only so much money is printed as is wasted and torn.
    If you print more money than that, does the money retain its value?
    It is inflated. The value of the original money stays the same.

    They did print extra money in Germany in the 20s. We all know what happened.
    Hitler happened.

    If you give more money to the rich, there is less money for the poor.
    Money does not increase when it changes hands.

    Vice versa. If you give more money to the poor, there is less money for the rich.
    This is why the rich vouch for Ayn Rand.
    Ayn Rand did not believe in printing money to solve economic problems. She made some comment about this in Atlas Shrugged.

    "The wads of worthless paper money were growing heavier in the pockets of the nation, but there was less and less for that money to buy. In September, a bushel of wheat had cost eleven dollars; it had cost thirty dollars in November; it had cost one hundred in December; it was now approaching the price of two hundred—while the printing presses of the government treasury were running a race with starvation, and losing."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #63
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Let us look closer at this "objectivist" pamphletism.

    The Randists claim that if you give money to the rich, the poor get money by the side.
    This is mathematically impossible.

    Liza and Tom are siblings. Liza has one dollar and Tommy has nine dollars.
    A good Randist, is Liza. She gives her sole dollar to Tommy. Tommy has now ten dollars.
    How many dollars Liza has? None.

    Money is printed all the time.
    That is because it is paper, and paper tends to become wasted and torn when it changes hands.
    Only so much money is printed as is wasted and torn.
    If you print more money than that, does the money retain its value?
    It is inflated. The value of the original money stays the same.

    They did print extra money in Germany in the 20s. We all know what happened.
    Hitler happened.

    If you give more money to the rich, there is less money for the poor.
    Money does not increase when it changes hands.

    Vice versa. If you give more money to the poor, there is less money for the rich.
    This is why the rich vouch for Ayn Rand.
    If I'm interpreting you correctly, Ayn Rand did not believe in crony capitalism. Laissez-faire capitalism and limited government was her belief.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #64
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    This is why the rich vouch for Ayn Rand.
    I don't think that's the reason why. It's more than the predator thinks survival of the fittest is the universal law... position in life determines belief.

    (I tried to haiku this, I have no talent. Verily, I am a cultural leech.)

  5. #65
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I don't think that's the reason why. It's more than the predator thinks survival of the fittest is the universal law... position in life determines belief.

    (I tried to haiku this, I have no talent. Verily, I am a cultural leech.)
    @wildcat believes that wealth is a static quantity and that only the rules of arithmetic apply to it.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #66
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    believes that wealth is a static quantity and that only the rules of arithmetic apply to it.
    I can hardly speak (for) Wildcat, but that's an oversimplification of what he is overstating. Unfortunately, two extremes don't meet in the middle; they are like probabilities and together as an argument is farther from the truth than either alone.

    (Edit: Seriously, is my sentence even parse-able? Threads like this make me wonky.)

  7. #67
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    I can hardly speak (for) Wildcat, but that's an oversimplification of what he is overstating. Unfortunately, two extremes don't meet in the middle; they are like probabilities and together as an argument is farther from the truth than either alone.

    (Edit: Seriously, is my sentence even parse-able? Threads like this make me wonky.)
    It was no overstatement. @wildcat simply looks at wealth in terms of distributing static quantities of cash in a society. Giving two dimes to a beggar means it didn't go to the rich guy, and so on.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #68
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    It was no overstatement.
    Over simplification is what I said; it simplifies his argument into a one-dimensional non-truth to reject it when there are elements of his argument that are valid. Assuming you interpret his poetry in a particular way, anyway.

    (I am not arguing his position, my comment to Wildcat had to do with the appeal of 'the rich' towards Randian-ism.)

  9. #69
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    Over simplification is what I said; it simplifies his argument into a one-dimensional non-truth to reject it when there are elements of his argument that are valid. Assuming you interpret his poetry in a particular way, anyway.

    (I am not arguing his position, my comment to Wildcat had to do with the appeal of 'the rich' towards Randian-ism.)
    As far as that goes, people from all walks of life find Objectivism appealing.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #70
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    As far as that goes, people from all walks of life find Objectivism appealing.
    I have no evidence for or against this. The only demographic information I have says it is a small and isolated group that tends to have sympathizers in college (age groups).

    In any case, I'm referring to a known couple of effects, not really talking about objectivists. Those that have money believe they deserve it rather than believe they were lucky/etc, and the tendency to justify this belief through a moral system the discharges any particular guilt or responsibility. It's the same for everyone, the only variation is what we are justifying.

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