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Thread: Objectivism

  1. #41
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    In simpler terms, there is no natural contradiction between self-interest and giving to charity.

    But I'm pointing out that Objectivism is not about the acquisition of wealth, as you stated, but the creation of wealth. That's why I stated that people like @Pseudo can't learn about Objectivism from any thread on this forum and used your comment as an example.

    There is a good reason for pointing out this distinction between acquisition and creation of wealth. At least some anti-American sentiment around the world is based on the falsehood that America acquired its wealth primarily through raiding the natural resources of other countries. That is acquiring wealth. But soon we would simply consume what we have acquired. People who criticize the US on this basis (which you are furthering) don't understand that innovation is the key, not acquisition.
    I did ask for input from this forum. But also did my own reading.



    Charity does go against self-interest. Any forward thinking person wouldn't waste their resources on others if their only goal was continuation of their own existence in a volatile universe. If the rule is "me first" than my self should win every single decision. Nothing should go to anyone that could go to me. If I am more important than other people why would I feel good that they have what was once mine?

  2. #42
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    I'm Sp dom, enneagram 7 and have a double Id tritype, most people are not like me. capitalism works partially because some people are FJ 2w1s who get a kick out of helping people. the point is, if you want to help people (and trust me, plenty of people do) you can do so, if you don't want to, you don't have to (though in a capitalist society one attains wealth through high productivity and wise allocation of resources, both of which help the economy and thus everyone involved in it without any extra giving)







    the Social instinct concerns itself with the larger sphere of the group or community. they commonly say and think things like "no man is an island" "what can I do to contribute to my community?" "what are the social/humanitarian implications of this decision?" putting the needs of the group before one's individual desires is a strong indicator of Social somewhere in the first two stackings.
    I also have difficulty seeing you as an Sp dom because Sp doms just get the idea of "me first". not that Sp doms are heartless or uncaring (though, frankly, Sp 5s usually are), but we are driven to get our own needs met (at least basic ones like safety, comfort, financial security and health). the concept of taking care of one's self first is instinctually ingrained in the Sp dom (especially Sp 5w6. they are they Scrooge's of the enneagram)

    anyway, if you have more questions about that you can message me, I have no intention of performing an unsolicited type inquisition.

    I think I'm an sx dom but I've gotten skeptical comments about that as well. I haven't attended to my profile in a while. But ennegrams never seemed to fit me well/ I don't get them. I come across very Sp but my self preservation is only really relates to my inner world. Autonomy, freedom to be creative, freedom of movement and behavior. I do like security in then sense of routine and feeling safe. But I'm not concerned about being in certain "sketchy places and not overly concerned with comfort as I don't pay much attention to my surroundings.

    Could be So. Don't know. I do care about my overall impact on they world but it's not very personal. An abstract understanding of what I feel to be an justifiable action or not. More likely to describe it as what is right for the universe rather than "others". I don't really get involved with the community because I'm not a people person. If anything I don't think So first.

    I think more than anything what shapes my ideas is that I don't see my life in particular as more important of significant than other people lives. In the span of time "I" am nothing so why would I devote my life to me. That goes for tother things as well like art, learning, romantic relationships, children. I haven't found what the worthy "it is yet. Maybe something divine (feel free to disagree).


    BUt yeah message me. I'd been interested to hear you thoughts on it.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ayn Rand.

    Russian expatriate.
    What do we know of these romantics?
    A philosopher?

    Is the moon there when you do not look?
    - Albert Einstein.

    Rationality is an abused word.
    Apology for thieves is not philosophy.
    Your post is a bit confusing, but not for the usual reason this time. Einstein was a philosopher first.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #44
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I did ask for input from this forum. But also did my own reading.



    Charity does go against self-interest. Any forward thinking person wouldn't waste their resources on others if their only goal was continuation of their own existence in a volatile universe. If the rule is "me first" than my self should win every single decision. Nothing should go to anyone that could go to me. If I am more important than other people why would I feel good that they have what was once mine?
    You won't find that idea in Rand's philosophy. It is more like Keating's or Toohey's or James Taggart's view of self-interest which they pegged as selfishness in the derogatory sense. You are presenting her villains' view of self-interest.

    And yet her main hero, John Galt, said he would commit suicide in order to prevent Dagny from being tortured by the government, if it came down to that. I can provide the quote:

    '... "they will have you on a torture rack—I mean, physical torture—before my eyes, in less than a week. I am not going to wait for that. At the first mention of a threat to you, I will kill myself and stop them right there."'

    But isn't that the ultimate self-sacrifice, the ultimate form of charity? Isn't giving one's life for another wrong in Rand's system?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  5. #45
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Your post is a bit confusing, but not for the usual reason this time. Einstein was a philosopher first.


    Ayn Rand. The subject of discussion.

    Russian expatriate. What she was.

    What do we know of these romantics? What do we know of these writers of romantic novels and their kind?

    A philosopher? Philosophers may not see Rand as a philosopher.

    Is the moon there when you do not look? Perception is about the senses.
    Is it then about reality as Rand claims?

    Rationality is an abused word. Rand claimed to be a rationalist.

    Apology for thieves is not philosophy.
    This is how I see Rand: An apologist. For whom?
    For thieves.

    Confusion cleared, I hope.

  6. #46
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Rand gives me something to hate one, suppose that can be useful.

    I dont even hate damn vampires as much as I do Rand and capitalism.

  7. #47
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Ayn Rand. The subject of discussion.

    Russian expatriate. What she was.
    Relevance?

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    What do we know of these romantics? What do we know of these writers of romantic novels and their kind?
    There has been much discussion on the subject in the literature. You might want to check into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    A philosopher? Philosophers may not see Rand as a philosopher.
    And Rand might not have seen them as philosophers, or even as human for that matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Is the moon there when you do not look? Perception is about the senses.
    Is it then about reality as Rand claims?
    Solipsism is not exactly a controversial subject, except perhaps by freshman philosophy students.

    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Rationality is an abused word. Rand claimed to be a rationalist.

    Apology for thieves is not philosophy.
    This is how I see Rand: An apologist. For whom?
    For thieves.

    Confusion cleared, I hope.
    Are you using reason, or not? Perhaps she was apologizing for you too.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #48
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Rand was a Russian refugee whose entire philosophy was built upon bitterness about losing everything in the Russian revolution. Simple as.

    If there is anything good in it at all its by virtue of the fact it adds to the ongoing dialogue about social ethics and virtue.

    Some thinking is simply good per se, some thinking is only good because it can be critiqued and give a focus for opposition in the thesis, antithesis, synthesis and then new thesis fasion.

    Its a crank ideology which sells well because people want to be selfish, they search for rationalisations for it and Rand provides a lot of that, not because they've been conditioned to be selflessly neurotic by religion, political ideology, parents but because, unless you're one of natures true psychopaths, you will experience pangs of conscience if you are selfish.
    Thank you, Lark.
    This is what I wanted to say.

    Ayn Rand is not much, I know.
    She wrote her apologia for thieves. Who are they?
    The thieves are the people who have amassed large fortunes out of the expense of the people.

    In the days of Robin Hood, the Normans were big landowners.
    The people lived in distress and poverty. The Normans had stolen everything in the land.
    Robin gave some of the Norman loot back to the people.
    The Normans had him murdered.

    Palme became Prime Minister of Sweden.
    During centuries, the rich landowners had exploited the people.
    So Palme took some of the loot and gave it back to the people.
    One day he was shot in the street.

    The thieves do not want to return the money.
    So, they read Ayn Rand, or they go around shooting people.
    It is better to read Ayn Rand.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Thank you, Lark.
    This is what I wanted to say.

    Ayn Rand is not much, I know.
    She wrote her apologia for thieves. Who are they?
    The thieves are the people who have amassed large fortunes out of the expense of the people.
    One of these days, dear Wildcat, you may actually learn the difference between acquiring wealth, stealing wealth, and creating wealth.

    Meanwhile, say bye-bye to your Twinkies which were, according to you, stolen from "the people."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #50
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Relevance?



    There has been much discussion on the subject in the literature. You might want to check into it.



    And Rand might not have seen them as philosophers, or even as human for that matter.



    Solipsism is not exactly a controversial subject, except perhaps by freshman philosophy students.



    Are you using reason, or not? Perhaps she was apologizing for you too.

    I have checked.

    Relevance?

    I have a dog. I call her Ayn Rand.
    I walk my dog. A new neighbour passes by.
    I point to my dog and I say:
    Hello and this is Ayn Rand.
    It is called an introduction.

    Freshmen courses are about introduction, too. Hello and this is philosophy.
    Introduction is redundant?

    Ayn Rand was a bad novelist. Goebbels was another bad novelist.
    Both became apologists for a bad cause.
    Apologia is not philosophy. It is not science, or art.

    Lark wrote a valid post. Read it.

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