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  1. #91

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    Objectivism hates America and makes the baby Jesus cry.

  2. #92
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    I'm not asking the majority of the world to relinquish their cultural values. My task here is to convince Wildcat that there actually IS an alternative, not that it is the right or wrong alternative. Now you're going down the road of right v. wrong. That's not the point.

    And anyway, what happened to cultural relativism? It doesn't apply to America? OIC.
    - I don't see where I said I was a (cultural) relativist and I'm certainly not the way you are projecting me to be
    - I reject your viewpoint on your European "culture", self reliance and so forth as incorrect/biased
    - I am not part of your conversation with Wildcat and there is no need to clump me with him; I entered because I disagreed/clarified something Wildcat said.
    - I stated nothing about relinquishing cultural values

  3. #93
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ptgatsby View Post
    - I don't see where I said I was a (cultural) relativist and I'm certainly not the way you are projecting me to be
    - I reject your viewpoint on your European "culture", self reliance and so forth as incorrect/biased
    - I am not part of your conversation with Wildcat and there is no need to clump me with him; I entered because I disagreed/clarified something Wildcat said.
    - I stated nothing about relinquishing cultural values
    "America is different, and unique, in this regard. I consider it negative after experiencing the alternatives."

    "I consider it" constitutes an opinion. Opinions are irrelevant.
    "I reject" is based on an opinion. Opinions are irrelevant.

    You made yourself part of our conversation whether you know it or not.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #94
    Senior Member ptgatsby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    "America is different, and unique, in this regard. I consider it negative after experiencing the alternatives."

    "I consider it" constitutes an opinion. Opinions are irrelevant.
    "I reject" is based on an opinion. Opinions are irrelevant.

    You made yourself part of our conversation whether you know it or not.
    I'm not sure I'm evening having a conversation with you, TBH. I'm not hiding my opinion. It is neither yours or Wildcat's. If you do believe opinions are irrelevant and given that I am unlikely to go any work for this kind of a thread, I'll just leave you two cats in a bag to your devices.

  5. #95
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Objectivism hates America and makes the baby Jesus cry.
    Exactly.
    The Americans deserve better.

  6. #96
    Senior Member wildcat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Are you comparing humans to animals (predators)? Animals have no cultural context. It is also possible to question belief instead of being merely determined by culture or position in life or what-have-you.

    Europeans have no concept of self-reliance. Their culture doesn't allow for it. The socialist welfare state doesn't allow for it. But that doesn't mean Wildcat can't come to an understanding of the fact that America is different. I have been surrounded by people who believe in individualism and self-reliance. (That doesn't mean they don't love their families and their country.) Self-reliance is easy to grasp in concept, even if he can't ever know what it means on a more personal level. It means "Fuck you, welfare state!" or "Fuck you, culture of egalitarianism and boring sameness!"
    When the Culture of Europe became a boring sameness?
    The Hapsburgs of Austria created the walfare state long before diversity ended.
    Bismarck followed suit.
    Austria emancipated the Jews. Bismarck followed suit.
    Hitler in Vienna received money from two coffins of the state treasury.
    Eighty percent of tax money came from Jewish industrial centers.
    Krakow, Lodz, Budapest, Prague, Bratislava.

    A true European, was Nick. No concept of self reliance.
    He had made a promise to his father.
    I shall defend the faith.
    The Russian secret police found a nut who pulled the trigger. Nick was so happy.
    Serbia is Orthodox land.

    Nick did not want war, though. It all came all out of hand.
    He had offered an excuse to Cousin Wilhelm. It was too late.
    Cousin Wilhelm was adamant. He had wanted Flanders as much as Nick had wanted Serbia.
    The people of Flanders were good Protestants. They defended the true faith.
    A family quarrel began.

  7. #97
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wildcat View Post
    Exactly.
    The Americans deserve better.
    'Better' = Socialism.

    Objectivism, strictly interpreted, means a return to the Industrial Era. And that's not happening anyway.

    Right now the American system is more of a corporate fascist-welfare state. Americans are rejecting corporate fascism in favor of socialism because they don't know of any better options. The people of Europe don't know better, neither do the voting American immigrants who have come out of socialist states. They don't know better because they haven't been taught better. And there are schools in America where anti-Capitalism is directly taught as a great evil. They aren't given a chance to think freely about the issue, the context given them is a-historical. Propaganda education teaches a black-and-white view. Forcing merely two viewpoints down people's throats, one "good" and the other "evil," isn't giving them much room for debate. It's just the usual simplistic Marxist view of society - rich vs. poor. But in Marx's time and place there was no middle class, no concept that wealth is created, no concept that money has to be earned, not much to go on at all except for his immediate cultural context which was primitive. A return to Marx is a return to the same primitivism he saw all around him.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  8. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    'Better' = Socialism.

    Objectivism, strictly interpreted, means a return to the Industrial Era. And that's not happening anyway.

    Right now the American system is more of a corporate fascist-welfare state. Americans are rejecting corporate fascism in favor of socialism because they don't know of any better options. The people of Europe don't know better, neither do the voting American immigrants who have come out of socialist states. They don't know better because they haven't been taught better. And there are schools in America where anti-Capitalism is directly taught as a great evil. They aren't given a chance to think freely about the issue, the context given them is a-historical. Propaganda education teaches a black-and-white view. Forcing merely two viewpoints down people's throats, one "good" and the other "evil," isn't giving them much room for debate. It's just the usual simplistic Marxist view of society - rich vs. poor. But in Marx's time and place there was no middle class, no concept that wealth is created, no concept that money has to be earned, not much to go on at all except for his immediate cultural context which was primitive. A return to Marx is a return to the same primitivism he saw all around him.
    Its very obvious to me that you've not read any Marx. You should think about, a lot of people on Wall St. are.

  9. #99
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Its very obvious to me that you've not read any Marx. You should think about, a lot of people on Wall St. are.
    If you're saying that Marx is not a simple read, you're right. But his dialectical materialism is based on a simple social dichotomy.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  10. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If you're saying that Marx is not a simple read, you're right. But his dialectical materialism is based on a simple social dichotomy.
    He's yet to be proven wrong about that, its part of what makes him popular with Wall St.

    I'd also say that your representation of Marx and Marxism was totally mistaken, for one there were concepts about earning wealth and creation of wealth, they had been around for some time and had been tested, Marx's criticism of economics, which is fair and still stands, was that it had ceased to be any kind of scientific investigation and had become an ideology to serve special interests, which it is.

    Objectivism is not the alternative to both socialism and corporatism, whatever its theoretical underpinnings may be any objectivist policy or reform or change begins frim the here and now and consequently will only ever serve to strengthen actual existing corporatism and financial power.

    I dont believe that American people or emigrees to the states, or anyone at all pretty much in the world today, wants socialism or is voting for it, socialism has become nothing what so ever besides a prejorative term used by conservatives and capitalists.

    What people want, I believe, are specific fixes to market failures, such as those associated with the delivery of health services, they also are not pleased by the power of finance or monopolists, that's what's wrong with corporations to most people in welfare-capitalism BTW as most companies or agencies public or private are run and structured the same way (ie managerialism prevails), to make a lie of popular sovereignty or democratic will. That's not socialism, not by a country mile. Its not even necessarily a mixed economy in any sense of that idea, ie either mixed industries and limited financial sector or mixed public and private market share in the economy, and a mixed economy is not socialism either, not by a country mile.

    GDH Cole attacked the idea of creeping nationalisation/state ownership of firms in the economy and welfare were anything remotely like socialism a long, long time ago but no one was listening, certainly not free marketeers like Hayek whose ignorance of socialism was so great that he was capable of dedicating the road to serfdom to "socialists of all parties".

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