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  1. #21
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Well, if you want to talk about "Satan" specifically, there have been books written on his evolution throughout the Bible to become the kind of figure he is known as today. The fact he "evolved" throughout the literature suggests he is a concept and not a fact.

    I tend to see "evil" as a way of behaving rather than as a "person" or "thing," though. There might be specific individuals who are the epitome of evil, but it doesn't mean that Evil exists as an entity.

    You also need to apply human morality to reach our definition of evil. Animals without capacity for moral choice are not evil, for example. If a bear eats you, it's not because the bear wanted to murder and expunge you, it is because the bear was hungry or you are encroaching on its territory, and it is reacting out of survival instincts. Interestingly, we expect people to behave differently, even if they think they are operating out of survival; love is the capacity to treat another as if they were yourself, rather than viewing them as "Other" and thus an enemy or parasite. In general, evil seems to be like a black hole, force that has imploded upon itself so that its world is only as big as itself and no other entities are caught inside the event horizon to be viewed as kin. Everything is a threat or food; everything is an enemy or prey; there is only the self, and the self cut off from community soon becomes lost on its own private wasteland.

    Hence, evil is imploding, isolationist, aggressive, and destructive.

    Yup. About the standard of replies I expected.
    Going to stop posting threads.
    What's this? What's this? Can it be? Did Christmas come early this year?? Oh gee!

    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  2. #22
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Interestingly, we expect people to behave differently, even if they think they are operating out of survival; love is the capacity to treat another as if they were yourself, rather than viewing them as "Other" and thus an enemy or parasite. In general, evil seems to be like a black hole, force that has imploded upon itself so that its world is only as big as itself and no other entities are caught inside the event horizon to be viewed as kin. Everything is a threat or food; everything is an enemy or prey; there is only the self, and the self cut off from community soon becomes lost on its own private wasteland.
    How would one correct such a situation?

    BTW, these are some of the best definitions I have seen of these concepts.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  3. #23
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    How would one correct such a situation?
    How to correct it?

    I think it gets harder and harder to help someone who is more bent on evil, typically because getting closer to them means making yourself vulnerable and thus susceptible to damage. That's the peril of love vs. evil -- since love involves becoming vulnerable and evil consists of exploiting love, chances are love will be killed by evil in a direct confrontation. The hope is twofold: (1) that witnesses to the behavior of love vs evil will be turned to love as something admirable and worthwhile and that (2) somewhere deep inside, evil's loneliness and fear coupled with the mystery of love will entice it to change its ways, seeing that love is not a threat but something desirable.

    Typically what you see in terms of "dealing with evil" is either for people to sacrifice themselves to try to change evil's ways, or they try to 'wall off evil' so that it can no longer hurt others and is lost with itself, or they kill evil in order to remove it permanently.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  4. #24
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    There's an idea (I believe it's from the Jewish tradition) that Satan is kind of God's fall guy (no pun intended) in the sense that he serves God by tempting man, and thus plays the villian to higher purpose. Evil is revealed, rather than inspired in man by the Devil. This is a notion that's echoed in tarot where the Devil represents how man becomes enslaved by his own pleasures and excesses, thus creating his own hell.

    If you think about it, all these elements are present in the story of The Fall. The original sin was man knowing a will apart from that of God's, namely his own, because he erred in his illusion of individuality. As all sin somehow derives from this fundamental error what becomes clearer and clearer is that Satan is in many ways equatable with the ego.

    So, to answer the question in the OP, I believe that Satan is supernatural to the extent that all supernatural figures are representative of man's imperfect understanding of himself and his world. In a lot of ways the Judeo-Christian conception of evil is downright imprecise compared to conceptions from Eastern traditions like Buddhism who point directly to the illusion self as man's greatest enemy without need for pretense at allegory.
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    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  5. #25
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    There's an idea (I believe it's from the Jewish tradition) that Satan is kind of God's fall guy (no pun intended) in the sense that he serves God by tempting man, and thus plays the villian to higher purpose. Evil is revealed, rather than inspired in man by the Devil. This is a notion that's echoed in tarot where the Devil represents how man becomes enslaved by his own pleasures and excesses, creating his own hell.

    If you think about it, all these elements are present in the story of The Fall. The original sin was man knowing a will apart from that of God's, namely his own, because he erred in his illusion of individuality. As all sin somehow derives from this fundamental error what becomes clearer and clearer is that Satan is in many ways equatable with the ego.

    So, to answer the question in the OP, I believe that Satan is supernatural to the extent that all supernatural figures are representative of man's imperfect understanding of himself and his world. In a lot of ways the Judeo-Christian conception of evil is downright imprecise compared to conceptions from Eastern traditions like Buddhism who point directly to the illusion self as man's greatest enemy without need for pretense at allegory.
    +1

  6. #26
    Senor Membrae Eugene Watson VIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post

    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    There's an idea (I believe it's from the Jewish tradition) that Satan is kind of God's fall guy (no pun intended) in the sense that he serves God by tempting man, and thus plays the villian to higher purpose. Evil is revealed, rather than inspired in man by the Devil. This is a notion that's echoed in tarot where the Devil represents how man becomes enslaved by his own pleasures and excesses, creating his own hell.

    If you think about it, all these elements are present in the story of The Fall. The original sin was man knowing a will apart from that of God's, namely his own, because he erred in his illusion of individuality. As all sin somehow derives from this fundamental error what becomes clearer and clearer is that Satan is in many ways equatable with the ego.

    So, to answer the question in the OP, I believe that Satan is supernatural to the extent that all supernatural figures are representative of man's imperfect understanding of himself and his world. In a lot of ways the Judeo-Christian conception of evil is downright imprecise compared to conceptions from Eastern traditions like Buddhism who point directly to the illusion self as man's greatest enemy without need for pretense at allegory.
    +1
    +1
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  7. #27
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by minutegovt View Post
    +1
    +1

  8. #28
    Senor Membrae Eugene Watson VIII's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    +1
    I've run outta change.
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  9. #29
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    He wasnt originally portrayed as humanoid in appearence or aspect, in the same way that God never was given a human visage either. The reason being that both were supernatural.

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    There's an idea (I believe it's from the Jewish tradition) that Satan is kind of God's fall guy (no pun intended) in the sense that he serves God by tempting man, and thus plays the villian to higher purpose. Evil is revealed, rather than inspired in man by the Devil. This is a notion that's echoed in tarot where the Devil represents how man becomes enslaved by his own pleasures and excesses, thus creating his own hell.
    There's also a kind of "trial lawyer" approach in the Book of Job, where Satan goes to God and basically says, "Hey, men aren't nearly as good as you think they are," and then basically gets God to ante up in some celestial bet -- God picks Job as his example, and then proceeds to heap misfortune upon Job based on the Devil's comments ("Well, if he lost everything, I doubt he'd worship you.") That part of the story is interesting because Satan never really creates any of the misfortune.... it all comes from God.

    Quote Originally Posted by minutegovt View Post
    I've run outta change.
    If you only had two more cents, we coulda swapped it all out for a nickel.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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