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  1. #21
    morose bourgeoisie
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    I think Lark's thesis could possibly reduce violence, if it happened in conjunction with other social changes...

  2. #22
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I don't buy this. I don't know what meditation is if it must only be conducted when some undefined "right mindedness" is first achieved. I consider folding paper meditation for me. It gets me away from my thoughts and into contemplative action. I don't wait for the right state of mind before I begin the action of my meditation, I begin my action to achieve that meditative state of mind. I think if we require some state as a prerequisite, then no one is going to feel prepared enough to start a meditative action and its probably what keeps people from practicing or embracing those contemplative actions over expedient, prudent actions. If someone moving weights does that for them, I don't see why that can't be meditative. For me, putting this qualifier on it seems to rob it of being meditative or achievable.
    Folding paper is not meditation for me and so therein lies the problem.

    The way I am referring to meditation is a specific set of actions that are defined in order to achieve a specific result. This is exactly why some people cannot emulate a specific form of meditation. They say "this method doesn't work for me!" and it's true, it doesn't work for them because they are not prepped for it.

    So yes, the way you are saying it, anything can be meditative but at the same time, we cannot say precisely what meditative actually is, and therefore cannot prescribe that anyone actually does it unless they already know what is meditation for them.

    Edit: not to mention that if it becomes a rote action, more often than not it ceases to be effective. A dissociative ritual is not necessarily meditation just because you disconnect - plenty of people have these and still end up being terrible people.

  3. #23
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This argument is tautological. If you're right-minded you're not a violent person.
    For a different meaning of right minded, sure.

    I'm talking about a productive mindset which applies to anything, even for example, practicing the piano. Some people want to become a virtuoso practically over night, so they either practice hard, or too hard, and burn themselves out on it, or get in their own way and become disappointed in their lack of progress, and might even quit.

    There's a proverb somewhere that one who is impatient does not learn quickly. This is also related to the cup being over full and you can't put any more in it no matter what you do.

  4. #24
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    This argument is tautological. If you're right-minded you're not a violent person.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Folding paper is not meditation for me and so therein lies the problem.

    The way I am referring to meditation is a specific set of actions that are defined in order to achieve a specific result. This is exactly why some people cannot emulate a specific form of meditation. They say "this method doesn't work for me!" and it's true, it doesn't work for them because they are not prepped for it.
    Why is folding paper not meditation? I'm sorry, but there is more than one way to meditate. Just because you're not sitting cross-legged on the ground while quietly humming "Ohm" doesn't mean you aren't meditating. Besides, the OP did not provide a set of "rules for meditation" you speak of.

    So yes, the way you are saying it, anything can be meditative but at the same time, we cannot say precisely what meditative actually is, and therefore cannot prescribe that anyone actually does it unless they already know what is meditation for them.

    Edit: not to mention that if it becomes a rote action, more often than not it ceases to be effective. A dissociative ritual is not necessarily meditation just because you disconnect - plenty of people have these and still end up being terrible people.
    Now you seem to contradict yourself. I'm confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    For a different meaning of right minded, sure.

    I'm talking about a productive mindset which applies to anything, even for example, practicing the piano. Some people want to become a virtuoso practically over night, so they either practice hard, or too hard, and burn themselves out on it, or get in their own way and become disappointed in their lack of progress, and might even quit.

    There's a proverb somewhere that one who is impatient does not learn quickly. This is also related to the cup being over full and you can't put any more in it no matter what you do.
    I fail to see how this example relates to meditation. By this logic, people who happen to both be violent and meditate are simply violent because they are dissatisfied with their meditation. I'm sure many violent people who meditate are very happy with their meditations, otherwise they would not attempt them.

  5. #25
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    This.


    Why is folding paper not meditation? I'm sorry, but there is more than one way to meditate. Just because you're not sitting cross-legged on the ground while quietly humming "Ohm" doesn't mean you aren't meditating. Besides, the OP did not provide a set of "rules for meditation" you speak of.


    Now you seem to contradict yourself. I'm confused.


    I fail to see how this example relates to meditation. By this logic, people who happen to both be violent and meditate are simply violent because they are dissatisfied with their meditation. I'm sure many violent people who meditate are very happy with their meditations, otherwise they would not attempt them.
    If you are confused, meditate on it.

    More serious answer:
    I said that folding paper is not meditative for me.

    Why does this matter? It matters because in order to have any kind of theory on the effects of meditation, we have to know what the meditation actually is. Folding paper does not result in a meditative state for me on its own. Because it just doesn't - it's not my fault.

    So what do you do when somebody asks "how do I meditate?" (and plenty of people ask this!) and you tell them "fold some paper"
    Then they come back to you and say "folding paper didn't give me the result I was looking for..." what then is your answer?

    Edit:
    Furthermore, if we take meditation to be so loosely defined as this, then nearly everyone does something that is like meditation. So from this perspective, the answer to the OP is "It already is a norm."

  6. #26
    insert random title here Randomnity's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Religion or some religious person or people have wounded you deeply in the past.
    I await your evidence showing that no violence has ever been done by people who pray daily.

    Or could it be that your response was based on knee-jerk emotion rather than evidence? Nevermind, in that case.
    -end of thread-

  7. #27
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Also I think we need to distinguish between meditation as a disconnecting, de-stressing exercise that mainly works as an escape while you are doing it, and meditation which evokes an inner clarity which is long lasting for some time after you practice it and begins an all inclusive cycle that one can build upon.

  8. #28
    your resident asshole
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I said that folding paper is not meditative for me.
    Whoops, my bad. Reading failure.

    Why does this matter? It matters because in order to have any kind of theory on the effects of meditation, we have to know what the meditation actually is. Folding paper does not result in a meditative state for me on its own. Because it just doesn't - it's not my fault.

    So what do you do when somebody asks "how do I meditate?" (and plenty of people ask this!) and you tell them "fold some paper"
    Then they come back to you and say "folding paper didn't give me the result I was looking for..." what tfhen is your answer?

    Edit:
    Furthermore, if we take meditation to be so loosely defined as this, then nearly everyone does something that is like meditation. So from this perspective, the answer to the OP is "It already is a norm."
    But when did this thread turn into how people meditate? It doesn't matter that you can't meditate by paper folding. Why focus on coming up with a rigid definition? People meditate in different ways, yet this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone meditates. Even if someone meditates, they may not be doing it often. For example, let's pretend that Vasilisa folds paper to meditate several times a month. Meanwhile, Buddhist monks and middle eastern Muslims meditate multiple times daily. Does this not seem matter to matter more than the method of meditation?

    Hmm...the above paragraph is very poorly written. Let me know if you need clarification. I'm not even sure I know what I'm talking about. :/

  9. #29
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DisneyGeek View Post
    Whoops, my bad. Reading failure.


    But when did this thread turn into how people meditate? It doesn't matter that you can't meditate by paper folding. Why focus on coming up with a rigid definition? People meditate in different ways, yet this doesn't necessarily mean that everyone meditates. Yet even if someone meditates, they may not be doing it often. For example, let's pretend that Vasilisa folds paper to meditate several times a month. Meanwhile, Buddhist monks and middle eastern Muslims meditate multiple times daily. Does this not seem to matter a bit more than how they meditate?

    Hmm...the above paragraph is very poorly written. Let me know if you need clarification. I'm not even sure I know what I'm talking about. :/
    I was never actually talking about how people meditate in the first place. I basically said that for a given action to be meditation, it requires a certain frame of mind - which it does. People have been so quick to jump in and disagree with me that they have missed the point. Shoot first, ask questions later I suppose.

    This does not mean that you have to consciously set up a specific frame of mind before you meditate, and trying to do that would probably defeat the purpose. It's just that a certain frame of mind is required for the meditation to work. @Vasilisa claims that she doesn't need to set up this right mindedness, and she probably doesn't, possibly because she already has it.

    Just because a certain frame of mind is taken for granted because it is already there does not mean that others automatically possess it. Another may lack that which you don't even know that you have.

    As to what this has to do with the OP: we can't truly answer the question without knowing what meditation is. The questions of how - and as you brought up how often they do it make it even more difficult to answer.

    It gets to the point where we have to ask "who is actually meditating and how do we even know that they are doing it?" which makes any further questions about it pretty much unanswerable.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I was never actually talking about how people meditate in the first place. I basically said that for a given action to be meditation, it requires a certain frame of mind - which it does. People have been so quick to jump in and disagree with me that they have missed the point. Shoot first, ask questions later I suppose.

    This does not mean that you have to consciously set up a specific frame of mind before you meditate, and trying to do that would probably defeat the purpose. It's just that a certain frame of mind is required for the meditation to work. @Vasilisa claims that she doesn't need to set up this right mindedness, and she probably doesn't, possibly because she already has it.

    Just because a certain frame of mind is taken for granted because it is already there does not mean that others automatically possess it. Another may lack that which you don't even know that you have.
    Let me try to understand what you're saying. Do you mean that in order for someone to meditate, they will already be in the state of "right-mindedness?" Or is this not what you mean? If this is indeed what you mean, then what of the violent/mentally unsound people who meditate? (If not, disregard the question.)

    As to what this has to do with the OP: we can't truly answer the question without knowing what meditation is. The questions of how - and as you brought up how often they do it make it even more difficult to answer.

    It gets to the point where we have to ask "who is actually meditating and how do we even know that they are doing it?" which makes any further questions about it pretty much unanswerable.
    Alright fine, I suppose I'll give you that one.

    But can't it still be said that middle eastern countries generally emphasize meditative activities more than western countries, so they therefore will do more meditative-like things and with greater depth than people in western countries? (I realize that this is a huge generalization that should be broken down more.) Do you disagree? Why or why not?

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