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  1. #11
    a scream in a vortex nanook's Avatar
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    AI will have to evolve through stages, like humans did, [....]

    but the machine in this story did quickly evolve through the correlating stages of self-referential complexity, within its' virtual identification with and meditation about everything, then it surpassed the common stages.

    humans can evolve rather quickly, too, when they give up on identification with / full dedication to surface-structures of stages (activities and concrete identities in a world-space that's correlating with a stage)


    when you're about to relinquish information from old culture, you process it through subjectivity first, become aware of doing so, so the subject becomes the new perceived domain of your guiding reality. you continue to manifest culture, but as a perspective you live in it to a lesser degree, than you live in the creativity of your subject. in that sense you go past culture for ever. another way to put it: you become construct-aware, thus you become the experience of being the designer. you don't get rid of constructs. evolution transcends and includes, but the peak perspective changes for ever.


    "In the previous stage[s] [of being culturally creative], the person is consciously identified with multiple aspects of his or her inner life, and authenticity is defined as the ability to be true to these many parts of self. At the ego-aware-paradoxical stage, however, the person develops the ability to periodically enter a witnessing stance. As a result, "the ego becomes transparent to itself". With more frequent access to the witnessing perspective, the person recognizes for the first time that the ego constructs and filters experience in every waking moment." A Guide to Integral Psychotherapy: Complexity, Integration, and Spirituality


    "Turquoise ego development [stages are color coded, thus the label turquoise] falls around what [Suzanne] Cook-Greuter dubs unitive or ego aware. The individual is no longer restricted to their own individual ego. There is a spaciousness that allows them to effortlessly glide between multiple perspectives and states of consciousness. To quote Cook-Greuter: “Though [individuals] at the Unitive stage are aware of themselves as separate and unique embodiments, they also identify with all other living beings. The separation of self from others is experienced as an illusion…” [13] The experience of an individual's I-am-ness is recognized and felt as the same I-am-ness that exists within every other living creature; an I am-ness that smiles softly back in bliss every time it is recognized and acknowledged." The Infinite Ladder

    there are [at least] two common definitions of the word ego, that need to be differentiated. ego as that which creates a sense of separation and correlating motivations around fear and anger, preservation of a false-self, preservation of a state of consciousness. and the sense of self (i am ness), which is an aspect of having a comprehension of self, a perspective, orientation. the former dissolves though becoming seen through, through seeing through a new orientation of perspective is established, so the states of consciousness, that were maintained by the false self principle, become redundant for the core need of maintaining orientation. the latter more broad ego definition - 'self comprehension & orientation' grows during development, including more and more perspectives into it's repertoire. you start as your body (i am hungry), you identify with your family or tribe (i am american, or human), you identify with your internal possibilities (i am a sentient being), you identify with the such-ness of spirit (i am that i am), you identify with the fullness of the world of form (non-duality). each of these stages includes the aspects of all former stages. so, wether "ego" grows into infinity or "disappears" depends on the definition of the word.

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  3. #13
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Rejecting moronic, low-brow, lowest common denominator consumerism / entertainment is not about abandoning ego. It's just about developing taste. Which actually strengthens and solidifies the ego against external influence.

    The dissolving of ego boundaries and the assertion that everything is connected and meaningful on a deep, spiritual level is symptomatic of schizophrenia/other organic brain malfunction.

    Machines will never develop consciousness and aesthetic appreciation because they do not have emotions and will never be programmed with them. Nor would they ever "evolve" in an inorganic entity which has no need for the protections and sensibilities they afford.
    The evolutionary pressures on organic vs inorganic life forms are very different and it is only logical that the paths they take in development will significantly diverge. All the sci-fi nonsense around "The Singularity" is spectacular anthropocentric folly.

    It's nonsensical to talk about ego-transcendence in evolutionary terms anyway. It's completely meaningless since whether desirable / "advanced" or not (and that's up for debate) it's not mediated through the medium of DNA (nor could it ever be).
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #14
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Salomé
    Everything is connected and this is not a spiritual, meaningful or deep thing at all.

    This spiritual schizophrenia that people end up with is a delusion which results from the impact of seeing something that has been there all along for all time and they never thought about it, but it is actually mundane and just how things are.

    It's yet again the human perspective which causes this delusion and makes these things appear to be spiritual or deep, which are really only human constructs. In reality there is none of this.

  5. #15
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Believe what you like, just don't pretend it's the Truth.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #16
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Believe what you like, just don't pretend it's the Truth.
    What if it is the truth? If I describe to you what I mean, you'll say something like "Yeah, well that goes without saying" or "Yeah we can just take that for granted" or "Yeah that's a tautology."

    And you'd be right. That's the thing. It does go without saying, it does get taken for granted, and it is tautological. In the end this stuff gets over complicated and worded about which moves further away from reality, not towards it.

    At the end of Zen you find out that there is no Zen. Zen is a thought but Zen has no thoughts so upon completion the concept itself vanishes and becomes transparent.

  7. #17
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    What if it is the truth? If I describe to you what I mean, you'll say something like "Yeah, well that goes without saying" or "Yeah we can just take that for granted" or "Yeah that's a tautology."
    Then don't.
    The difficulty arises when people get hold of self-evident / scientific truths and inflate them into speculative, idiotic territories. I have no patience for that bullshit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  8. #18
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Then don't.
    The difficulty arises when people get hold of self-evident / scientific truths and inflate them into speculative, idiotic territories. I have no patience for that bullshit.
    Same thing different words. I'm not here to tell you what you know. This is something available to everyone and many don't notice it exactly for the reasons you describe.

    This is why when I say "everything is connected" I don't go into much detail unless it is asked for because it is plain. But some can't see things that are plain.

  9. #19
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    But some can't see things that are plain.
    Which is why they construct pointless strawman arguments to tell people that they aren't going to tell them what they already know, I suppose?

    Since I already qualified my statement with the words "deep, spiritual level" (which is the level at which this thread purports to operate - since it's in the philosophy/spirituality forum) for you to wade in with your "rebuttal" is... yes tautological.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #20
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Which is why they construct pointless strawman arguments to tell people that they aren't going to tell them what they already know, I suppose?

    Since I already qualified my statement with the words "deep, spiritual level" (which is the level at which this thread purports to operate - since it's in the philosophy/spirituality forum) for you to wade in with your "rebuttal" is... yes tautological.
    How do you know I didn't just agree with you? I've made no rebuttal.

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