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  1. #51
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Everything references to the universe. @cascadeco was actually on the right track with this.
    People are not the only reference points but you still must reference to your environment. If you had no environment, you have no preferences - barring the fact that you wouldn't be alive in the first place.
    Obviously. People are only one part of that environment, though, and I tend to use other parts of the environment for reference. That is the distinction I was trying to make.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #52
    FRACTALICIOUS phobik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    I think that with all of the posts in this thread, most of what I have to say has already been covered.

    But, I'll post anyway.

    I think we're always being 'ourselves', even if we're hiding a portion, or putting any number of veneers, either partial or full, to navigate whatever environment we find ourselves in. I don't even think this is a negative thing all of the time; I think soon after we're born, we begin picking up on cues, and learning and reacting and assessing how different things we do will ilicit different reactions from others, saying certain things in certain environments could have negative consequences, etc. Also over time learning that for various reasons others may try to take advantage of any number of things, to *their* advantage - it's like a constant dynamic thing, everyone simultaneously learning to interact with one another, trying to figure out how they fit into the world around them, constant adjustment, give and take, learning to let go of certain aspects of our individual Egos so as to be able to interact with others and to be able to give to and love others.

    So I'm not even sure what the 'true self' is. Because ourselves minus others is... what? No reference point, really. Would it be our infant self the minute we're born, prior to learning we're not the only person in the world? 100% ego?

    So I guess my point is, is I think the shell around the 'seed' is very much our 'true self' too, as each of us develops our own unique 'shell', or way to interact with others - of knowing we're not the only people on the planet. And that level will vary from one person to the next, so everyone is still unique in that sense.

    I think we could all lock ourselves in relative isolation for a long while, in the attempt to 'know ourselves' and figure out who we are, and I think that will give us a certain amount of self-awareness, for sure. But the minute we're then placed in the company of others, all or much of that becomes irrelevant, because there's a whole other layer of Self that we then don't know - we don't know who we are in relation to others, and how we in fact want these relationships to be - so we're just as lost / unknowing of ourselves minus others, as wholly with others. It's definitely a balance - and I think both components are necessary to learning who we are and learning our 'true selves'.

    (myself, for the record... I have a pretty stunted understanding of 'who I am' in relation to others)
    It's curious you wrote this, as it's exactly part of text that came to mind:
    Ego - The False Center
    The first thing to be understood is what ego is. A child is born. A child is born without any knowledge, any consciousness of his own self. And when a child is born the first thing he becomes aware of is not himself; the first thing he becomes aware of is the other. It is natural, because the eyes open outwards, the hands touch others, the ears listen to others, the tongue tastes food and the nose smells the outside. All these senses open outwards.

    That is what birth means. Birth means coming into this world, the world of the outside. So when a child is born, he is born into this world. He opens his eyes, sees others. 'Other' means the thou. He becomes aware of the mother first. Then, by and by, he becomes aware of his own body. That too is the other, that too belongs to the world. He is hungry and he feels the body; his need is satisfied, he forgets the body.

    This is how a child grows. First he becomes aware of you, thou, other, and then by and by, in contrast to you, thou, he becomes aware of himself.

    This awareness is a reflected awareness. He is not aware of who he is. He is simply aware of the mother and what she thinks about him. If she smiles, if she appreciates the child, if she says, "You are beautiful," if she hugs and kisses him, the child feels good about himself. Now an ego is born.

    Through appreciation, love, care, he feels he is good, he feels he is valuable, he feels he has some significance.

    A center is born.
    continue reading
    To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, be nothing.
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    Music provides one of the clearest examples of a much deeper relation between mathematics and human experience.

  3. #53
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    The Iself and the Eself

    The true self is now the content of the shown self, in the same way that theatre is the content of the movies.

    The true self is the literate self and the shown self is the electonic self.

    The individual self, the iself, is created by reading books alone, while the electronic self, the eself, is created by communing together on Typology Central.

    So the iself is now the content of the eself.

  4. #54
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post

    The examples given were that we can see a seed and to us it is just a seed. We don't see the plant or the tree or the flower that is hidden inside of it. Or we see a caterpillar and don't realize that a butterfly is inside of it. Or we simply see each other and don't realize that someone else is inside of us.

    Do you think this is true about your own self? If so, do you know what it is inside of you that no one sees? If not, do you think you are showing your true self quite often?
    A caterpillar doesn't have a butterfly inside of it. It (may or may not) have the potential to become a butterfly. It could just as easily become a meal / part of the tissues of a bird. The same goes for a seed. A caterpillar is not a butterfly, it's a caterpillar and is constrained to do caterpillar things. It doesn't even have a inkling of its potential ability to fly. To focus on "potential" is to deny the immediate, deny the moment, deny the reality of now. It's a mistake NFs often make.

    The distinction between "true" self and "false" self is similar fruitless speculation. All that matters is how we actually treat each other and how we conduct ourselves, today. Everything else is irrelevant/ may never come to pass.

    Everything I do is part of my "true" self. Because "I" did it. No phantom, no puppet, just me. Similarly, I cannot own as my "true" self those things I do not make manifest but merely fantasise are true of me. If I think myself a sensitive soul but act like a thug, I am still a thug. Worse - a deluded thug.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    A caterpillar doesn't have a butterfly inside of it. It (may or may not) have the potential to become a butterfly. It could just as easily become a meal / part of the tissues of a bird. The same goes for a seed. A caterpillar is not a butterfly, it's a caterpillar and is constrained to do caterpillar things. It doesn't even have a inkling of its potential ability to fly. To focus on "potential" is to deny the immediate, deny the moment, deny the reality of now. It's a mistake NFs often make.

    The distinction between "true" self and "false" self is similar fruitless speculation. All that matters is how we actually treat each other and how we conduct ourselves, today. Everything else is irrelevant/ may never come to pass.

    Everything I do is part of my "true" self. Because "I" did it. No phantom, no puppet, just me. Similarly, I cannot own as my "true" self those things I do not make manifest but merely fantasise are true of me. If I think myself a sensitive soul but act like a thug, I am still a thug. Worse - a deluded thug.
    Interesting viewpoint.

    You provide a good reminder to be cognizant of the present state of being. I think that the best path most likely lays in between the two extremes of "future potential" and "present reality." There is nothing wrong with desiring to be something beyond what you are currently. The best place to start is by recognizing what you have in yourself now and pushing yourself along a new trajectory.

    Thank you for your input.

  6. #56
    Symbolic Herald Vasilisa's Avatar
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    I can understand why xNFPs, or anyone for that matter, may find alluring the idea of the self that is true and pure manifesting unencumbered. I have been seeking self-awareness since I was young, and there are insights, and corresponding adjustments to my behavior, but still it isn't like I dig and dig and come upon one solid treasure chest. Its all small fragments. I love the concept of transformation, of people choosing to become what they desire for themselves, metamorphosis. Someone once told me our ability to consciously make changes in ourselves is what separates us from the animals. Its not quite like putting on a mask, for even the way we navigate social expectations is an expression of whats inside. I guess that when I leave people to fill in the blanks, when I let their fantasy dictate the way I choose to present myself is when I am being most untrue. I am aware of this, and thats the first step.

    Still seems relevant:

    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I like Andrew Soloman's words:

    One would like to demarcate clearly the boundaries of the self. In fact, no essential self lies pure as a vein of gold under the chaos of experience and chemistry. The human organism is a sequence of selves that succumb to or choose one another. We are each the sum of certain choices and circumstances; the self exists in the narrow space where the world and our choices come together. ... We can never escape from choice itself. One's self lies in the choosing, every choice, every day.
    the formless thing which gives things form!
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  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vasilisa View Post
    I can understand why xNFPs, or anyone for that matter, may find alluring the idea of the self that is true and pure manifesting unencumbered. I have been seeking self-awareness since I was young, and there are insights, and corresponding adjustments to my behavior, but still it isn't like I dig and dig and come upon one solid treasure chest. Its all small fragments. I love the concept of transformation, of people choosing to become what they desire for themselves, metamorphosis. Someone once told me our ability to consciously make changes in ourselves is what separates us from the animals. Its not quite like putting on a mask, for even the way we navigate social expectations is an expression of whats inside. I guess that when I leave people to fill in the blanks, when I let their fantasy dictate the way I choose to present myself is when I am being most untrue. I am aware of this, and thats the first step.

    Still seems relevant:
    Beautifully written as well. I am not looking for one right answer here, because I don't think there can be one right answer. I am really enjoying seeing different perspectives and where they come from on this idea.

    I have an INFJ friend who is always on her own path of selfdiscovery, and I love checking in with her to see how she approaches this matter. It's so different from my own, and delightful to get new ideas on how I can further explore things.

    I also like the idea of transformation... it's an interesting mix of digging for the treasure inside of you and also attempting to hone your trajectory towards a certain goal. Ultimately it's all about balance.

  8. #58
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I also like the idea of transformation... it's an interesting mix of digging for the treasure inside of you and also attempting to hone your trajectory towards a certain goal. Ultimately it's all about balance.
    Daiju visited the master Baso in China. Baso asked: "What do you seek?"
    "Enlightenment," replied Daiju.
    "You have your own treasure house. Why do you search outside?" Baso asked.
    Daiju inquired: "Where is my treasure house?"
    Baso answered: "What you are asking is your treasure house."
    Daiju was enlightened! Ever after he urged his friends: "Open your own tresure house and use those treasures."

  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    I also like the idea of transformation... it's an interesting mix of digging for the treasure inside of you and also attempting to hone your trajectory towards a certain goal. Ultimately it's all about balance.
    As Salome observed, the caterpillar is not a butterfly. (I was waiting for someone to say so.) It does not even have the capacity to wish to become one. The inner city high school student similarly is not a lawyer. Dissimilarly, however, he can dream of becoming one, and let that ambition motivate and guide his progress until he makes it a reality. The dream itself is thus part of his here-and-now, as much as the gangs, drugs and poverty that might fill his environment. His future is thus inextricably tied to his understanding that he need not be limited by his present. Unlike the caterpillar, he cannot leave realization of his potential to the autopilot of genetic programming.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #60
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    Its funny that alot of people out there cant see my true self because of my true self. They cant see passed one side of me to see my other side.
    Im out, its been fun

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