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  1. #1
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    Default Is Christianity anti-spiritualism? (supposed dangers of occult / eastern )

    As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

    However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

    This leaves me to wonder:
    1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
    2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

    I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

    (/confused) :/

  2. #2
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
    @Peguy @Amargith @Coriolis @kyuuei (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)

  3. #3
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

    However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

    This leaves me to wonder:
    1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
    2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

    I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

    (/confused) :/

    I have only reccentlly become more religious and I have a much more open perspective than some other people I knew who grew up in church. Many of the dogmatic church practices strike me as culture related rather than related to Jesus or God. I for one sort of roll my eyes whenever there is mention of deamons or angels or energies. And maybe that's my misunderstanding but to me using crystals to call energies is just calling nothing. It's like when Elijh challenged the followers of baal to get a response from him. Nothing happened.

    I don't really beilieve in channeling or divination and on the other hand I don't really trust faith healers certain religious superstitious ceremonies. To me religious ceremonies are just symbolically aligning yourself with things. Putting yourself in a certain mindset. So I guess If you are calling on the forces of nature it could be seen as putting yourself into the mind set that that material world is the answer to life and that would separate you from God. Focusing on your own aura and your own self would separate you from God. But I don't think there would be some other supernatural force coming in.

    As for meditation that is part of my religious practice as a walks into nature and Yoga. Again i think of it was more of a mindset thing. Using those activities as a way to channel my thinking to God.

    I read a book called spiritual disciplines Prayer, fasting, works ect. and one of the chapters was on mediation. The idea of trying to just be in the presences of God rather than having a dialogue like you would in prayer or monologue like in journaling. It was a very important book for me because it sort of broke me out of the mindset that If i was going to explore christianity I had to do it through sunday schools and church picnics and listening to someone elses speeches every week.

    I think western christianity has so of a formula that is not really biblical. A lot of posturing and appearances. If your intention is to find God I don't think it's bad to explore that in different ways including things that aren't in the West's ideas of christianity like meditation or examining scientific phenomenon.

  4. #4
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

    However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

    This leaves me to wonder:
    1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
    2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

    I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

    (/confused) :/
    If you are going to explore spiritualism there are probably two things you need to do.

    First, know yourself. And if you don't know yourself, get to know yourself through Western psycho-therapy.

    And then knowing yourself you are ready for the next step to understand trance and learn to enter and leave trance safely at will. A place to begin is http://willproject.org/history/biographies/dennis-wier/

  5. #5
    Babylon Candle Venom's Avatar
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    I like your idea of "presence" of god vs presence of nature.

    One really interesting book I read was called Jewish meditation (or something). It had a similar effect on me to the book you described (even though I'm not Jewish at all). It claimed that Kabbalah was far from some mystic side of judiasm, but that in reality it was an accepted aspect of ancient judiasm. It was a known ascended priviledge of those who passed certain mile stones. These wise and seasoned spiritual leaders (aged 40+) would then learn certain methods of meditation that allowed them to receive the sorts of divine messages that made their way back into the "civic" portion of the religion digestible for the masses that we now have today. ... The book had some excellent techniques for meditations, but instead of the presence of nothingness being the goal (more eastern style), being closer to the divine was the goal. I remember feeling that they worked pretty well when I tried them. An interesting note from the book was that "nothingness" really is as close as our minds can come to holding the idea of god! The techniques would blend this together by holding the Hebrew name of god in my minds eye and then imagining to etch "nothingness" all around it...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I have only reccentlly become more religious and I have a much more open perspective than some other people I knew who grew up in church. Many of the dogmatic church practices strike me as culture related rather than related to Jesus or God. I for one sort of roll my eyes whenever there is mention of deamons or angels or energies. And maybe that's my misunderstanding but to me using crystals to call energies is just calling nothing. It's like when Elijh challenged the followers of baal to get a response from him. Nothing happened.

    I don't really beilieve in channeling or divination and on the other hand I don't really trust faith healers certain religious superstitious ceremonies. To me religious ceremonies are just symbolically aligning yourself with things. Putting yourself in a certain mindset. So I guess If you are calling on the forces of nature it could be seen as putting yourself into the mind set that that material world is the answer to life and that would separate you from God. Focusing on your own aura and your own self would separate you from God. But I don't think there would be some other supernatural force coming in.

    As for meditation that is part of my religious practice as a walks into nature and Yoga. Again i think of it was more of a mindset thing. Using those activities as a way to channel my thinking to God.

    I read a book called spiritual disciplines Prayer, fasting, works ect. and one of the chapters was on mediation. The idea of trying to just be in the presences of God rather than having a dialogue like you would in prayer or monologue like in journaling. It was a very important book for me because it sort of broke me out of the mindset that If i was going to explore christianity I had to do it through sunday schools and church picnics and listening to someone elses speeches every week.

    I think western christianity has so of a formula that is not really biblical. A lot of posturing and appearances. If your intention is to find God I don't think it's bad to explore that in different ways including things that aren't in the West's ideas of christianity like meditation or examining scientific phenomenon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    If you are going to explore spiritualism there are probably two things you need to do.

    First, know yourself. And if you don't know yourself, get to know yourself through Western psycho-therapy.

    And then knowing yourself you are ready for the next step to understand trance and learn to enter and leave trance safely at will. A place to begin is http://willproject.org/history/biographies/dennis-wier/
    After reading @Pseudo and @Victor comment on what is real vs not real vs the word spiritualism I've had a few revelations...

    Im actually not interested in spiritualism at all. I have no interest and do not ever want to exchange psychic information or contact with guides, astrals or other entities. I enjoy chakras, lucid dreams, energy and aura stuff because they really don't feel spiritual at all. They feel more like science that may either be complete placebo affect or just beyond our own science. But, for example, who cares whether chakras 'work' because they are plexus gatherings of nerve centers or actual energy centers? They seem almost areligious in this nature, and I wish to keep it that way. To venture into "actual" occult/psychic/divination/sorcery would force me back into a world of religion that I don't want to play in!

    I believe in a god, but i also believe god is bigger than a silly anthropormorphized version. I grew up Christian, and am largely agnostic on the whole substitutive sacrifice deal rather than "for" or "against". Maybe I intuitively have known this whole time that chakras, lucid dreams and other stuff is as far as I can go before I run up against my own agnosticism? I guess I'm happier with my boundaries than I thought when I posted this thread .

  6. #6
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    You need to remmber that christianity and it's dogma was shaped from a very human need for control, control of the peasantry in a tme of upheaval. The first tenet of that was that a christian could only know God through the church and specifically a priest. There was no direct communication between God and man allowed and the priests were one of the few members of society who could read . So the original texts the religion was based upon was never seen by the believers and as such were open to abuse of interpretation by the clergy.

    The church made a lot of money from taxes, indulgences, crusades and pilgrimages. The church actually rivalled the governement in it's pure economic power. And maintaining that power was of great interest to the church. So much of what that church espouses comes from a need to keep its economic interests at heart, even to this day.

    At the end of the day we each have to find our own place of conscience and morals in what we do. If the nature of what you are doing or the information you are receiving is in line with your conscience and morals then go with it. If God really does frown upon our activities (unlikely) then don't you think God would have equipped you with the ability to detect any infractions for yourself? What would be the point in punishing the ignorant?

  7. #7
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    I think the psyche = the soul. What you're interested in is introspection of the soul and in that sense you are interested in your spiritual experiences. Whether it is mysticism is a different story, though. Christian sects have a long history of polarizing their viewpoints on alleged mystics; coming into contact with God via a burning bush was venerated while speaking in tongues is considered by some to be heretical. What the truth of the matter is, one can't be certain, but I am certain that those who truly accept spiritual deficits progress in being honest with themselves. We have a natural capability to sense imperfection in ourselves by our own standards and recognizing this strength is the starting point.

  8. #8
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
    (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)
    I was never really a practising christian, so I cannot comment on that. Personally, I have no interest in the 'darker arts' beyond a theoretical curiosity as that energy does not really suit me. I cannot comment on what is out there if you go looking for it, but ime, the only things you come across and have to beat and work with are you own demons inside. Fear, anxiety, pain, loss, anger...they are the demons you come across and since they are highly individual for everyone, only you can beat your own, through self-reflection, journaling, actively learning about life, refining your perspectives and world views, etc.

    For the record, I've studied tarot, worked with stones, am sort of working with chakras and most of all..I work with the energy of living things, with Nature, as such. I have lucid dreams which I thoroughly enjoy, spirit guides which inspire me and are like rolemodels to me, etc

    I find that energy work makes me feel alive. And it is something that *everyone* in some way uses, whether limited or not. I personally cannot imagine life without it

    Now, again, I'm not Christian, so I do not share the God-fearing thing but I would think that if a God made life, then demanding that energy work not be used would be..counterproductive as, from my experience, that is what life is build on.

    Lastly, I think you have trouble reconciling the two coz you are listening to other peoples opinions (and thats not a bad thing, you are gathering information). The thing to do after you gather the intel, however, is ask yourself what YOU think. And how you feel when you think about this shit. Activate that Fi, dude. When you think of something and ask yourself if it is right or wrong, the beep inside will tell you. And eventually, after you work through all the bits and pieces, you will work out a system that feels right for you and makes logical sense (and stops the head aches you are experiencing now )

    So. In short: trust your own gut and got step by step so you do not drown in the process. You'll get there eventually
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





    "Harm none, do as ye will”

  9. #9
    Emperor/Dictator kyuuei's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Venom View Post
    The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
    @Peguy @Amargith @Coriolis @kyuuei (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)
    Saying all occult is evil is like saying carbs are bad for you. Sure, you'll avoid unnecessary carbs, but that's not actually the whole truth of it. It's an over-simplified version of things because it's easier to say and associate that than it is to say what's politically proper. Unfortunately, people more often than not take things at face value, and thus you have inconsistencies in communication. To bring the point home.. Many things Christians do have nothing to do with Christianity: Christmas trees, easter eggs, etc. Many rituals done in the name of prayer have nothing to do with prayer itself. The essence of prayer is you communicating with God. To some, that means lighting candles, putting trinkets on alters, wearing garbs, etc. But these are human inventions, not divine in nature. The Bible doesn't tell you you must light candles during these prayers, or decorate a Christmas tree.

    Occult practices are much more similar to prayer than people give them credit for. Spells, castings, divinations, these are all human attempts to communicate with God(s) and spirits and the Divine. I've done rituals more often than not without a single circle cast, alter set up, candle lit, or symbol of any sort. All you need is yourself and the spirit you are communicating with. We use these things because we are human, and we're physical creatures.

    It is with whom Pagans try to communicate with that Christians find unacceptable, understandably so.
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  10. #10
    Senior Member Lightyear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kyuuei View Post
    It is with whom Pagans try to communicate with that Christians find unacceptable, understandably so.
    I think that is the crux of the matter. Are you actually reaching the true God through whatever you are practising? Or is it all just smoke and mirrors, even though it might not be spiritually dangerous are there any genuine results coming out of it?

    A lot of the new agey stuff seems a bit hollow to me, how much of it genuinely changes you and helps you and how much is just a lot of noise and pretty spiritual formulas that turn out to be empty? I think it's the same in Christianity when people talk about spiritual gifts, prophecy etc, I guess it is impressive when someone suddenly supernaturally knows something but is that knowledge just a gimmick or does it really change someone's life for the better, comfort and restore people and point them towards God? After all from a Christian point of view it's all about deepening your relationship with God, everything else is just a way to achieve that end.

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