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Is Christianity anti-spiritualism? (supposed dangers of occult / eastern )

Venom

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As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

This leaves me to wonder:
1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

(/confused) :/
 

Venom

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The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)
 

Pseudo

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As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

This leaves me to wonder:
1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

(/confused) :/


I have only reccentlly become more religious and I have a much more open perspective than some other people I knew who grew up in church. Many of the dogmatic church practices strike me as culture related rather than related to Jesus or God. I for one sort of roll my eyes whenever there is mention of deamons or angels or energies. And maybe that's my misunderstanding but to me using crystals to call energies is just calling nothing. It's like when Elijh challenged the followers of baal to get a response from him. Nothing happened.

I don't really beilieve in channeling or divination and on the other hand I don't really trust faith healers certain religious superstitious ceremonies. To me religious ceremonies are just symbolically aligning yourself with things. Putting yourself in a certain mindset. So I guess If you are calling on the forces of nature it could be seen as putting yourself into the mind set that that material world is the answer to life and that would separate you from God. Focusing on your own aura and your own self would separate you from God. But I don't think there would be some other supernatural force coming in.

As for meditation that is part of my religious practice as a walks into nature and Yoga. Again i think of it was more of a mindset thing. Using those activities as a way to channel my thinking to God.

I read a book called spiritual disciplines Prayer, fasting, works ect. and one of the chapters was on mediation. The idea of trying to just be in the presences of God rather than having a dialogue like you would in prayer or monologue like in journaling. It was a very important book for me because it sort of broke me out of the mindset that If i was going to explore christianity I had to do it through sunday schools and church picnics and listening to someone elses speeches every week.

I think western christianity has so of a formula that is not really biblical. A lot of posturing and appearances. If your intention is to find God I don't think it's bad to explore that in different ways including things that aren't in the West's ideas of christianity like meditation or examining scientific phenomenon.
 

Mole

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As someone who really no longer practices strict mainstream christianity, I still can't help but check in with, "what do catholics think of [said occult or eastern practice]?" . I grew up catholic and as such will always have some of that programming. I find myself at a cross roads. Ive gotten really into binaural beats, meditations, energies, auras, lucid dreams, attempted astral projection, chakra tuning, nature contemplations etc and all of that seems harmless to me. Nothing there really seems like sorcery or divination. Chakras, energies and meditative states all appear to be "natural" and spiritually clean.

However, when ever I start researching one step further into actual divination/channeling such as automatic writing, spirit guides, and other divination methods, I come across Christian sites that claim all of these are merely "best case" communication with evil entities and "worst case" opening yourself up to attacks. To make it worse, some go as far as to say "any" spirit development (even chakras, meditations or energy work) are of "evil nature".

This leaves me to wonder:
1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?

I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?

(/confused) :/

If you are going to explore spiritualism there are probably two things you need to do.

First, know yourself. And if you don't know yourself, get to know yourself through Western psycho-therapy.

And then knowing yourself you are ready for the next step to understand trance and learn to enter and leave trance safely at will. A place to begin is http://willproject.org/history/biographies/dennis-wier/
 

Venom

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I like your idea of "presence" of god vs presence of nature.

One really interesting book I read was called Jewish meditation (or something). It had a similar effect on me to the book you described (even though I'm not Jewish at all). It claimed that Kabbalah was far from some mystic side of judiasm, but that in reality it was an accepted aspect of ancient judiasm. It was a known ascended priviledge of those who passed certain mile stones. These wise and seasoned spiritual leaders (aged 40+) would then learn certain methods of meditation that allowed them to receive the sorts of divine messages that made their way back into the "civic" portion of the religion digestible for the masses that we now have today. ... The book had some excellent techniques for meditations, but instead of the presence of nothingness being the goal (more eastern style), being closer to the divine was the goal. I remember feeling that they worked pretty well when I tried them. An interesting note from the book was that "nothingness" really is as close as our minds can come to holding the idea of god! The techniques would blend this together by holding the Hebrew name of god in my minds eye and then imagining to etch "nothingness" all around it...

I have only reccentlly become more religious and I have a much more open perspective than some other people I knew who grew up in church. Many of the dogmatic church practices strike me as culture related rather than related to Jesus or God. I for one sort of roll my eyes whenever there is mention of deamons or angels or energies. And maybe that's my misunderstanding but to me using crystals to call energies is just calling nothing. It's like when Elijh challenged the followers of baal to get a response from him. Nothing happened.

I don't really beilieve in channeling or divination and on the other hand I don't really trust faith healers certain religious superstitious ceremonies. To me religious ceremonies are just symbolically aligning yourself with things. Putting yourself in a certain mindset. So I guess If you are calling on the forces of nature it could be seen as putting yourself into the mind set that that material world is the answer to life and that would separate you from God. Focusing on your own aura and your own self would separate you from God. But I don't think there would be some other supernatural force coming in.

As for meditation that is part of my religious practice as a walks into nature and Yoga. Again i think of it was more of a mindset thing. Using those activities as a way to channel my thinking to God.

I read a book called spiritual disciplines Prayer, fasting, works ect. and one of the chapters was on mediation. The idea of trying to just be in the presences of God rather than having a dialogue like you would in prayer or monologue like in journaling. It was a very important book for me because it sort of broke me out of the mindset that If i was going to explore christianity I had to do it through sunday schools and church picnics and listening to someone elses speeches every week.

I think western christianity has so of a formula that is not really biblical. A lot of posturing and appearances. If your intention is to find God I don't think it's bad to explore that in different ways including things that aren't in the West's ideas of christianity like meditation or examining scientific phenomenon.


If you are going to explore spiritualism there are probably two things you need to do.

First, know yourself. And if you don't know yourself, get to know yourself through Western psycho-therapy.

And then knowing yourself you are ready for the next step to understand trance and learn to enter and leave trance safely at will. A place to begin is http://willproject.org/history/biographies/dennis-wier/

After reading [MENTION=16048]Pseudo[/MENTION] and [MENTION=3325]Victor[/MENTION] comment on what is real vs not real vs the word spiritualism I've had a few revelations...

Im actually not interested in spiritualism at all. I have no interest and do not ever want to exchange psychic information or contact with guides, astrals or other entities. I enjoy chakras, lucid dreams, energy and aura stuff because they really don't feel spiritual at all. They feel more like science that may either be complete placebo affect or just beyond our own science. But, for example, who cares whether chakras 'work' because they are plexus gatherings of nerve centers or actual energy centers? They seem almost areligious in this nature, and I wish to keep it that way. To venture into "actual" occult/psychic/divination/sorcery would force me back into a world of religion that I don't want to play in!

I believe in a god, but i also believe god is bigger than a silly anthropormorphized version. I grew up Christian, and am largely agnostic on the whole substitutive sacrifice deal rather than "for" or "against". Maybe I intuitively have known this whole time that chakras, lucid dreams and other stuff is as far as I can go before I run up against my own agnosticism? I guess I'm happier with my boundaries than I thought when I posted this thread :).
 
W

WhoCares

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You need to remmber that christianity and it's dogma was shaped from a very human need for control, control of the peasantry in a tme of upheaval. The first tenet of that was that a christian could only know God through the church and specifically a priest. There was no direct communication between God and man allowed and the priests were one of the few members of society who could read . So the original texts the religion was based upon was never seen by the believers and as such were open to abuse of interpretation by the clergy.

The church made a lot of money from taxes, indulgences, crusades and pilgrimages. The church actually rivalled the governement in it's pure economic power. And maintaining that power was of great interest to the church. So much of what that church espouses comes from a need to keep its economic interests at heart, even to this day.

At the end of the day we each have to find our own place of conscience and morals in what we do. If the nature of what you are doing or the information you are receiving is in line with your conscience and morals then go with it. If God really does frown upon our activities (unlikely) then don't you think God would have equipped you with the ability to detect any infractions for yourself? What would be the point in punishing the ignorant?
 
G

Ginkgo

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I think the psyche = the soul. What you're interested in is introspection of the soul and in that sense you are interested in your spiritual experiences. Whether it is mysticism is a different story, though. Christian sects have a long history of polarizing their viewpoints on alleged mystics; coming into contact with God via a burning bush was venerated while speaking in tongues is considered by some to be heretical. What the truth of the matter is, one can't be certain, but I am certain that those who truly accept spiritual deficits progress in being honest with themselves. We have a natural capability to sense imperfection in ourselves by our own standards and recognizing this strength is the starting point.
 

Amargith

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The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
(people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)

I was never really a practising christian, so I cannot comment on that. Personally, I have no interest in the 'darker arts' beyond a theoretical curiosity as that energy does not really suit me. I cannot comment on what is out there if you go looking for it, but ime, the only things you come across and have to beat and work with are you own demons inside. Fear, anxiety, pain, loss, anger...they are the demons you come across and since they are highly individual for everyone, only you can beat your own, through self-reflection, journaling, actively learning about life, refining your perspectives and world views, etc.

For the record, I've studied tarot, worked with stones, am sort of working with chakras and most of all..I work with the energy of living things, with Nature, as such. I have lucid dreams which I thoroughly enjoy, spirit guides which inspire me and are like rolemodels to me, etc

I find that energy work makes me feel alive. And it is something that *everyone* in some way uses, whether limited or not. I personally cannot imagine life without it

Now, again, I'm not Christian, so I do not share the God-fearing thing but I would think that if a God made life, then demanding that energy work not be used would be..counterproductive as, from my experience, that is what life is build on.

Lastly, I think you have trouble reconciling the two coz you are listening to other peoples opinions (and thats not a bad thing, you are gathering information). The thing to do after you gather the intel, however, is ask yourself what YOU think. And how you feel when you think about this shit. Activate that Fi, dude. When you think of something and ask yourself if it is right or wrong, the beep inside will tell you. And eventually, after you work through all the bits and pieces, you will work out a system that feels right for you and makes logical sense (and stops the head aches you are experiencing now :))

So. In short: trust your own gut and got step by step so you do not drown in the process. You'll get there eventually :)
 

kyuuei

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The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)

Saying all occult is evil is like saying carbs are bad for you. Sure, you'll avoid unnecessary carbs, but that's not actually the whole truth of it. It's an over-simplified version of things because it's easier to say and associate that than it is to say what's politically proper. Unfortunately, people more often than not take things at face value, and thus you have inconsistencies in communication. To bring the point home.. Many things Christians do have nothing to do with Christianity: Christmas trees, easter eggs, etc. Many rituals done in the name of prayer have nothing to do with prayer itself. The essence of prayer is you communicating with God. To some, that means lighting candles, putting trinkets on alters, wearing garbs, etc. But these are human inventions, not divine in nature. The Bible doesn't tell you you must light candles during these prayers, or decorate a Christmas tree.

Occult practices are much more similar to prayer than people give them credit for. Spells, castings, divinations, these are all human attempts to communicate with God(s) and spirits and the Divine. I've done rituals more often than not without a single circle cast, alter set up, candle lit, or symbol of any sort. All you need is yourself and the spirit you are communicating with. We use these things because we are human, and we're physical creatures.

It is with whom Pagans try to communicate with that Christians find unacceptable, understandably so.
 

Lightyear

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It is with whom Pagans try to communicate with that Christians find unacceptable, understandably so.

I think that is the crux of the matter. Are you actually reaching the true God through whatever you are practising? Or is it all just smoke and mirrors, even though it might not be spiritually dangerous are there any genuine results coming out of it?

A lot of the new agey stuff seems a bit hollow to me, how much of it genuinely changes you and helps you and how much is just a lot of noise and pretty spiritual formulas that turn out to be empty? I think it's the same in Christianity when people talk about spiritual gifts, prophecy etc, I guess it is impressive when someone suddenly supernaturally knows something but is that knowledge just a gimmick or does it really change someone's life for the better, comfort and restore people and point them towards God? After all from a Christian point of view it's all about deepening your relationship with God, everything else is just a way to achieve that end.
 
G

Ginkgo

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I think that is the crux of the matter. Are you actually reaching the true God through whatever you are practising? Or is it all just smoke and mirrors, even though it might not be spiritually dangerous are there any genuine results coming out of it?

^

Pseudo-spirituality typically comes hand-in-hand with a process of attempting to solidify prior theory with subsequent fact. In the case of recognizing the Divine through scientific methods or tangible proof, one is led to accumulate endless facts and/or superficial experiences to support an inconclusive body of thought. I've noticed this mentality not just in the scientific/occult community, but also in communities of evangelicals who wish to ward off potential threats to their conservative viewpoints. The evangelicals attempt to give evidence for the Divine from theology and into science, while the occultists typically work the other way around. Both attempts to merge proofs actually start from some sort of wavering stance about the truth of the Divine, though some evangelicals often refuse to admit it because they don't realize they're worshiping text. Here is the problem in a nutshell, regardless of one's affiliation with the occult or with religion: a spineless view of the cosmos that rests complacently in agnosticism and denotes ones own existence as what everything else revolves around.
 

Beorn

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The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
[MENTION=4212]Peguy[/MENTION] [MENTION=5494]Amargith[/MENTION] [MENTION=9811]Coriolis[/MENTION] [MENTION=4939]kyuuei[/MENTION] (people I remember to be related to pagan, or Catholicism)

I know you are a former catholic, but I'll give you my view from a reformed Protestant perspective.

As a christian I'm not a fan of divination of any sort. Regardless of whether someone is trying to talk to God or the devil. I can see why someone would be frustrated by Christians who condemn one sort of divination and then seek to use another form of divination. Because both efforts seem to come from the same completely understandable desire for an experience or knowledge that will bring peace.

Nonetheless, I avoid divination for five reasons:

1. Divination almost altogether ceased in the new testament after Pentecost and the descending of the holy spirit onto believers.
2. Revelation is powerful and that which is powerful is dangerous. I feel much more comfortable with revelation that has been examined and tested for at least 2000 years than with the words uttered by a prophet yesterday or random words that came to my mind during prayer this morning. I've seen people's lives manipulated and controlled by the power of divination and I find it pretty disgusting when that happens.
3. I have found the spiritual counsel of the bible to be sufficient for most any question I have. Moreover, the bible answers all the BIG important questions and any smaller questions I might have are just extrapolations of answers to the big questions. Questions with answers that can't be extrapolated from biblical answers simply aren't as important as I think they are.
4. Some people might find it ironic, but I'm also against divination BECAUSE I believe in Christian liberty. I believe that anything that isn't required by the bible is open for my own judgement. I'm not interested in being bound by more rules than are in the bible. I believe divination is often an effort to be bound by additional revelation. I think everyone can agree that the bible has enough rules. Another way of saying this is to quote saint Augustine: "Love God and do what you want." Of course I personally believe that loving God precludes divination.
5. The bottom line is that for the Christian peace should not be sought from experiences to come or from knowledge about the future. Rather it should be found in the knowledge of one's relationship with God and rituals and practices that celebrate that relationship formed during the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Christians don't need outside revelation for peace as we have the holy spirit himself within us to testify to our hope.

Theologian Bruce Waltke goes into further detail on the points I raised above in his book, Finding the Will of God: A Pagan Notion?
http://www.amazon.com/Finding-Will-God-Pagan-Notion/dp/0802839746
 
Last edited:

Scott N Denver

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I can't particularly be considered pagan, but I do have significant eastern practice background.

I have had friends that were very New Agey [they were also raised as catholics]. They are the people who were the most into spirit guides and divination of whatever sorts and seemed quite concerned about whether I "really believed" it or not. [Note: they were also INFJ's, bigtime Ni]. Later in life I met a number of people who were/are really big into mediumship.

Personally I've never felt particularly drawn to seances/mediumship/whatever, particularly dealing with spirits or entities, or divination. To be clear I associate divination with something like tarot cards cards or whatnot, and I would consider "assensing feng shui" or "feeling karmic floes" to be different than those, since the former are more active/intentional processes and the latter usually more "attuning to something thats already there anyways."

I've read and heard it said that many people that get into New Age are Catholic or former Catholics, and that having that background "sets them up for" or "makes them amenable to" new agey or spirituality type of stuff. It seems to me that Protestantism in most of its forms doesnt particularly emphasize "miracles"
and whatever else anyways, nor does it seem to incline people to try and go do those things on their own later. I've never been catholic, but guess catholicism seems to strongly push for miracles and spiritual happenings and stuff, whereas Protestantism largely does not.

Eastern stuff for the most part usually isnt trying to "perform or recognize miracles" or "talk to spirits" or whatever else. The significant majority of my own practice background focused on things like breathing methods, attitudes, being in the moment, and relaxing the mind. Even when developed to the level of directly working with auras and chakras it was largely about "how to improve you own 'well-being'" as opposed to "doing something in the external world with them." There are some practices, particularly in tibetan buddhism and some of the smaller japanese esoterics that strongly resemble tibetan buddhism, that deal with "visualizing deities" and "uniting with deities", but those arent basic level, and they receive far less public attention that other aspects of tibetan buddhism.

Some people see eastern philosophies as "lets develop you psychically!" or whatnot, but by and large any such outcome like that is usually, but not always, the side effect of some other practice and is usually, but not always, the desired or intended primary goal.

Let's see if I actually addressed any of your questions.
"The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?"

Whatever the word occult and whatever eastern philosophy means I see them as largely distinct entities, and whatever overlap may exist people usually have to aim for or try to do it. Expressed differently I don't generally speaking see eastern philosophy as being "occultism." Even things like chi, prana, auras, chakras, etc I generally see as "non-physical 'extensions' of one's total anatomy" and taking care of such things as being like "health." Would we say it is occult or "testing the spirit waters" to go jogging, for example? I dont see pranayama or meditation as being THAT different in the sense that they are exercising or being healthy in some other way/dimension. I'm not quite sure what is meant by "testing the spirit waters" but even when I do my most intense hard-core or otherworldly practices I'm not hanging out with spirits or doing automatic writing or staring at tarot cards or whatever.

I'm somewhat familiar about some of the things that people might encounter while "roaming" the "spirit world"
but I definitely would not say that I particularly spend a lot of time doing that and I think that excessive association of eastern things with occultism/magick/divination/mediumship etc is a weird, stretched, probably forced, and one sided arising from the other side way of looking at things. Unless your doing specific tibetan buddhist practices, japanese esoteric strongly resembling tibetan buddhism, maybe something tantric, or whatever the heck daoist magic is, someone looking for the sort of examples you provided isn't likely to be too satisfied by what eastern practices typically involve.

An argument could be made that working with chi, chakras, or auras qualifies as what your discussing, and on some basic level it probably does, but again such things are usually approached by us as "[spiritual] well being" and we usually aren't 1) talking to dead people, 2) letting whatever inhabit our bodies 3) talking to gods 4) summoning or binding spirits 5) using tarot or equivalents to attempt to foretell the future [I ching seems to be the closest similarity there] or any of those sorts of things.
 

sprinkles

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[MENTION=6839]Scott N Denver[/MENTION]

I think the Discordians and those who do chaos magic are probably the ones that contributed to bringing in eastern stuff.

The thing is though that they often really aren't mystical. Just like you describe. It's more the mindset of 'don't be too dogmatic and take what works'.

This is why Discordians are seriously not serious and not serious about being serious or not serious. What is, is, and you glean what you will from it - maybe it's a joke and maybe it's not. Maybe it's a joke that is not a joke that is a joke.
 

Scott N Denver

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[MENTION=6839]Scott N Denver[/MENTION]

I think the Discordians and those who do chaos magic are probably the ones that contributed to bringing in eastern stuff.

The thing is though that they often really aren't mystical. Just like you describe. It's more the mindset of 'don't be too dogmatic and take what works'.

This is why Discordians are seriously not serious and not serious about being serious or not serious. What is, is, and you glean what you will from it - maybe it's a joke and maybe it's not. Maybe it's a joke that is not a joke that is a joke.

I dont know what discordians are. I have heard the names of various western magickal groups, I'm guessing thats one of them.

Fwiw, one can find very spiritual or whatever word you want to use things in eastern training. Advanced yoga comes to mind. Sri Aurobindo is the most "occult" yoga or buddhism person I can think of, for example. Tantra deals a lot with "spiritual anatomy" and "doing things" with spiritual anatomy. However, tantra isn't basic or something that one just "walks into." There isnt a single eastern anything that I know of that would be like "welcome newcomer! Now lets train you to do do automatic writing and mediumship." I'm not sure I've even seen either of those words ever used in anything eastern that i know of.

Returning to practicing stuff in a largely-Christian culture, people I've met who are into similar things as myself they usually don't hide it but they also usually don't particularly "put it out there." In a country that is largely monotheistic, scientific, and/or atheist, there are plenty of people who may not look well on eastern practices. I think its interesting that a lot of what gets looked down on is really basic non-religious stuff. Is "breathing well" somehow religious? Or having a mind that doesn't wander all over the place? Most people don't know enough about the details of eastern philosophy to be particularly aware of how it differs from monotheism. I think at its basic and public personal level eastern practices are much less of an affront to traditional monotheism, or scientism for that matter, than are magickal/occult things. I think its hardest for people to say that "buddhism talks to the devil" because, by and large but not entirely, buddhism doesnt interact or "talk" with deities/higher beings/whatever. We also generally don't go around "casting spells" at people. I think most people would find "spells" far more than scary or weird or whatever than "focus on your breathing and voila you are meditating!"
 

sprinkles

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I dont know what discordians are. I have heard the names of various western magickal groups, I'm guessing thats one of them.

Fwiw, one can find very spiritual or whatever word you want to use things in eastern training. Advanced yoga comes to mind. Sri Aurobindo is the most "occult" yoga or buddhism person I can think of, for example. Tantra deals a lot with "spiritual anatomy" and "doing things" with spiritual anatomy. However, tantra isn't basic or something that one just "walks into." There isnt a single eastern anything that I know of that would be like "welcome newcomer! Now lets train you to do do automatic writing and mediumship." I'm not sure I've even seen either of those words ever used in anything eastern that i know of.

Returning to practicing stuff in a largely-Christian culture, people I've met who are into similar things as myself they usually don't hide it but they also usually don't particularly "put it out there." In a country that is largely monotheistic, scientific, and/or atheist, there are plenty of people who may not look well on eastern practices. I think its interesting that a lot of what gets looked down on is really basic non-religious stuff. Is "breathing well" somehow religious? Or having a mind that doesn't wander all over the place? Most people don't know enough about the details of eastern philosophy to be particularly aware of how it differs from monotheism. I think at its basic and public personal level eastern practices are much less of an affront to traditional monotheism, or scientism for that matter, than are magickal/occult things. I think its hardest for people to say that "buddhism talks to the devil" because, by and large but not entirely, buddhism doesnt interact or "talk" with deities/higher beings/whatever. We also generally don't go around "casting spells" at people. I think most people would find "spells" far more than scary or weird or whatever than "focus on your breathing and voila you are meditating!"

Yeah.

Discordians aren't inherently magical though. Nobody truly knows what it is - not even them. It's paradoxically not a thing. It's all about paradoxes, and getting rid of philosophical linear knowledge and beliefs that don't actually describe anything accurately.

It's like the koan: "What is Buddha?" and one answers "Three pounds of flax" well the Discordian answer is "Five tons of flax". For everything, pretty much.
 

cafe

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The tradition of Christianity I'm from, Pentecostal/Charismatic, does seem to incorporate altered states of consciousness. They do not call it that and would deny that there is any resemblance to Eastern practices, but it's kind of hard to miss if you aren't so invested in it that you can't be objective.

The realization has left me conflicted. For me, an old-fashioned Pentecostal worship service is like coming home in some ways. I don't mind being around it. However, I've also been taught all my life that Eastern style meditation, etc is bad and dangerous and I just don't see much of a difference between the two. So despite being comfortable in that setting up to a point, I don't really want to participate fully. I like keeping my mind as clear and in my conscious control as much as possible.
 

Mole

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New Age Spiritualism

Christianity over the last 2,000 years has a rich tradition of mysticism from the Desert Fathers in the first century, to the medieval book, "The Cloud of Unknowing", by Anonymous, to Thomas Merton in the 20th century.

But what is striking is that the mysticism of quite different religions such as Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are essentially the same.

And what is even more striking is that the spoken religions of Buddhism, Islam and Christianity all have a rich seam of mysticism, while the literate religion of Protestantism rejects mysticism and spiritualism.

And so as a reaction to the rejection of Protestantism, spiritualism and mysticism have been embraced by the New Age, long with astrology, mbti and homeopathy.
 

Coriolis

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You seem to be holding on to some invalid assumptions, which act as blinders, overconstraining the answers you can find.

1. if all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual were "evil" why would god even create humans with energy centers and extra sense in the first place? I understand that "free will" could be an answer, but how am I to know which free will is "correct"?
If you accept that all spiritual avenues other than prayer and Christian ritual are NOT evil, the problem goes away. Most people, even Christians, believe that God created everyone, "in his image" as the Bible says. You are also assuming that there is one correct free will. Many people would like you to think that, but it is another invalid assumption. There are many productive and wholesome ways to exercise one's free will.

2. why is it I'm able to mentally brush away a lot of the Christian metaphysics of 6000 year old earth, original sin, substitute sacrifice of Christ, BUT somehow I'm still easily creeped out by someone writing about demonology enough to halt any of my spiritual work?
Perhaps because you understand the evidence behind why the Christian metaphysics is wrong. Science has not really investigated, much less formulated reliable theories about demons and other such entities, so you do not have a counterweight of evidence to balance Christian claims.

I feel like I'm trapped between multiple ideologies and am unable to completely accept either one fully. Why does every religion have to be eaten whole? How do we know that this isn't like blind people describing an elephant and that there's mistakes and truths intermixed?
Another incorrect assumption. Every religion DOES NOT have to be eaten whole. It is just like the blind men and the elephant. Every religion tells us something different about the divine. We can never comprehend the whole, just as the blind men can never see the whole elephant. They can touch the various parts, though, and learn from each other's observations rather than dismissing them. So it is with religions. It is fine to focus on one which resonates with us and inspires us to become a better person, but to deny the validity of the others is illogical.

The TLDR version: whats your opinion of practicing occult/eastern spiritualism amongst a Christian world, is all occult evil? Did you have to "let go" of som Christian based fears in order to test the spirit waters with less fear?
Occult spiritual paths are no more or less evil than Christianity. It is humans who have the capacity for evil, and this persists regardless of which faith they profess. Just witness the Inquisition, and the persecution of Jews at various times.

Are you asking about practicing occult or eastern spiritualism while also being Christian, or just about practicing such faiths in the context of a largely Christian culture? If the first, it is generally just the Christian church that will demand exclusivity. I have yet to meet a pagan group that asks members to disavow other belief systems. If the second, the situation continues to improve as more people take the risk of following their inner guide/voice/compass - whatever you want to call it, rather than following the crowd. Yes, there is still persecution and ignorance, but there are also many opportunities to educate people on what non-mainstream faiths are and are not.

You are correct: I was raised Catholic and after much soul-searching, found paganism. Along the way I explored several other faiths, and found that pagan spirituality was the only faith I could follow honestly, without constantly making excuses for the things that did not make sense to me. For me to follow any other religion at this point would be simple hypocrisy, no more than a pretense. I participate in Christian worship sometimes with my SO, and as a musician, and have learned to see the divine in it from my new perspective far better than I ever did when I still considered myself Catholic. I am viewing it as a visitor now. I can admire how well the shoes suit other people without feeling I have to squeeze my feet into them any longer.
 

Qlip

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Christianity over the last 2,000 years has a rich tradition of mysticism from the Desert Fathers in the first century, to the medieval book, "The Cloud of Unknowing", by Anonymous, to Thomas Merton in the 20th century.

But what is striking is that the mysticism of quite different religions such as Buddhism, Islam and Christianity are essentially the same.

And what is even more striking is that the spoken religions of Buddhism, Islam and Christianity all have a rich seam of mysticism, while the literate religion of Protestantism rejects mysticism and spiritualism.

And so as a reaction to the rejection of Protestantism, spiritualism and mysticism have been embraced by the New Age, long with astrology, mbti and homeopathy.

It's interesting that any of the mystic traditions in the big Judaic religions have been marginalized. Kaballah probably least, but it is not considered a necessary study in Judaism. Christian mysticism is always on the fringe. And Sufism has had a rocky past in Islam.
 
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