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  1. #11
    Superwoman Red Herring's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I write language arts textbooks for 3rd-8th graders. I tell them that a fact is something that can be investigated and shown to be true or false (like "Helena is the capitol city of Montana"), and an opinion is something that can't be shown to be true or false (like "Helena is the most beautiful city in the United States"). Everyone has opinions, but some people think theirs are facts. Those people, in my opinion, are goofy. Hope this helps.
    Pretty much what I was about to say. An opinion is a value/taste based judgement on something for which there is no objective, factual answer. "The average rent per square meter in your town is X dollars high" is a fact. "The rents are too damn high" is an opinion.

    There are a lot of mentally lazy people who confuse the two at times and will say "It is a fact that X is too y" when they should either call it an opinion or qualify the statement as "X is too y for z to happen".

    I don't think though that this has anything to do with Ni users and "non-INJ types".
    You might have made a premature decision in starting a thread calling for "RAW input" on a very shaky assumption while stating that you believe you already answered your own question...you un-INJ of you!
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  2. #12
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    To me an "opinion" occurs when you take a stance on something but you are aware it is only your personal truth and/or you know there is no clear objective answer. For example, religion is an opinion in my eyes, because it's a personal decision. I think yes they can be excuses for premature decisions but a lot of times we HAVE to make decisions without all the information. So we do what we can.

    The nice thing about opinion is it's malleable. Fact is less so.
    if my analysis is partial, then ill make it very clear by the way i arrange words.

    I express my uncertainti with certainty on my uncertainty instead of pretending its complete. This allows clarity for unfinished data to be built upon.

    And most religions are actually factual, just very complicatedly so and high in concentration of parabilicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Red Herring View Post
    Pretty much what I was about to say. An opinion is a value/taste based judgement on something for which there is no objective, factual answer. "The average rent per square meter in your town is X dollars high" is a fact. "The rents are too damn high" is an opinion.

    There are a lot of mentally lazy people who confuse the two at times and will say "It is a fact that X is too y" when they should either call it an opinion or qualify the statement as "X is too y for z to happen".

    I don't think though that this has anything to do with Ni users and "non-INJ types".
    You might have made a premature decision in starting a thread calling for "RAW input" on a very shaky assumption while stating that you believe you already answered your own question...you un-INJ of you!
    With this post, im returning to my old conclusion before this thread: everyone has a different criteria for what an opinion is, as it differs greatly what each person consider the criteria for truth.

    Id say, of th up above quote post before this, that every name of city is an opinion. Cities are just dead material, like everything else, thus personifying them is opinionating. Considering people experience the same city in different ways, even if majority appeals to labeling.

    Where i use opinions: if the data has no impact for other people nor doesnt affect them directly, plus is utterly useless in terms of anything else than just mere enjoyment, then, its an opinion. Opinions are very abstract to my world.

    And rents being too high is a fact if they could sufficicate with lower.

    What i wrote in brackets was something random which popped to my mind to exercise my 7w8 side.

  3. #13
    Strongly Ambivalent Ivy's Avatar
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    I think you're overcomplicating something that is actually quite simple. I also don't think what you're talking about is fact vs. opinion at all.

  4. #14
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    what on earth are opinions?
    Im baffled, my current theses is, they are an excuse for premature decisions, which is in itself understandable how mental laziness manifests in larger quantities at non-INJ types.

    I solved the question i intended for you? Oh well =S..

    Maybe im anyways more inteerestehd in hearing those opinions than the fact i already have. Isnt my stance paradoxical? =X

    i guess thats the point of opinions, hopping boards for my intuition.
    An opinion is something that is represented by an emotion or feeling. An opinion cannot be true or false, it cannot be correct or incorrect. It is a value placement.
    A fact is something that is measurable to truth or falseness no matter what you feel about it.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    I think you're overcomplicating something that is actually quite simple. I also don't think what you're talking about is fact vs. opinion at all.
    i dont go into regulating language, rather i observe how people use it. And opinions, are one of the most complicated terms, for it doesnt differ only by personality type but even within my own kin there are slight alterations. It seems to be more related to head triad type and ti or te what the concept of opinion is.

  6. #16
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    Opinions are just beliefs with no factual basis.

  7. #17
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vilku View Post
    And most religions are actually factual, just very complicatedly so and high in concentration of parabilicity.

    With this post, im returning to my old conclusion before this thread: everyone has a different criteria for what an opinion is, as it differs greatly what each person consider the criteria for truth.

    Id say, of th up above quote post before this, that every name of city is an opinion. Cities are just dead material, like everything else, thus personifying them is opinionating. Considering people experience the same city in different ways, even if majority appeals to labeling.

    Where i use opinions: if the data has no impact for other people nor doesnt affect them directly, plus is utterly useless in terms of anything else than just mere enjoyment, then, its an opinion. Opinions are very abstract to my world.
    1. Many religions think they are factual. It may be a fact that adherants believe X, Y, and Z, but it is rare that those are facts; more likely a common symbol set, though they are not usually acknowledged as such.

    2. There is very good agreement in the replies so far as to what an opinion is.

    3. There are many kinds of facts. The name of a city is not an inherent property of that city. It is a fact, however, that that is the name used to refer to it, just as it is a fact that my boss' name is John.

    4. You mentioned initially the idea of an incomplete or premature judgment. An opinion can be quite final and complete, though, just highly subjective: dark beer is the best kind of beer. No one is going to change my mind about this, but it is subjective, and I can claim its validity only for myself. A more decision judgment can be incomplete if insufficient facts are available. In this case, I consider it tentative, and refine it as I get more information. The decision is premature only if I finalize it in the absence of adequate data, and refuse to modify it as more become available.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  8. #18
    Senior Member Vilku's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    1. Many religions think they are factual. It may be a fact that adherants believe X, Y, and Z, but it is rare that those are facts; more likely a common symbol set, though they are not usually acknowledged as such.

    2. There is very good agreement in the replies so far as to what an opinion is.

    3. There are many kinds of facts. The name of a city is not an inherent property of that city. It is a fact, however, that that is the name used to refer to it, just as it is a fact that my boss' name is John.

    4. You mentioned initially the idea of an incomplete or premature judgment. An opinion can be quite final and complete, though, just highly subjective: dark beer is the best kind of beer. No one is going to change my mind about this, but it is subjective, and I can claim its validity only for myself. A more decision judgment can be incomplete if insufficient facts are available. In this case, I consider it tentative, and refine it as I get more information. The decision is premature only if I finalize it in the absence of adequate data, and refuse to modify it as more become available.
    1. I was referring to some religions explain concrete factual aspects of reality with insufficient explanations. Bad delivery of a truth doesnt make truth false.

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