• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Morality

Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
1,511
MBTI Type
ENTP
A morally anarchist society would actually restrict freedom because the rule of law isn't designed to protect society from the individual. It's purpose is to protect the rights of the individual from tyrannical rule. Without it, you're at the mercy of the guy with the most guns. No property rights, no right to a trial, no right to your own money (so why try to make any?).
Restriction of freedom=holing yourself up in your barricaded house clutching a futile weapon in terror and hoping you starve to death before someone shoots your family.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
I wasn't saying that good karma gives material rewards. Perhaps I should have left a blank line between that sentence and the next.

K

Of course you have expectations when you invest in others. The magnitude of expectations may vary between individuals, but everyone has some measure of expectation. Anyone who thinks they can truly have no expectations is in denial.

How can either of us know if someone can be free of expectations? It's a point I'm not willing to concede or disagree with. I have faith/hope that it's possible to not hold onto things, and to let them disappear. To me, that's being free of expectation.

No, what gives someone peace of mind varies between individuals. Doing 'good' does not necessarily grant peace of mind.

Maybe not "necessarily," but you're arguing against a strawman. I didn't say it was necessarily, and what I'm saying works just as well without that word.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
You don't value material wealth? I don't believe that for a second. You would die if you had no material wealth, so it has some value to you.

I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.

As for the original argument, I think that morality is harmful to only those who don't subscribe to it, because it is only a hindrance that gets in the way of satisfying their personal needs and desires. I think that is a fair assessment since those who do subscribe to morality are risking nothing and are voluntary seceding their freedom to satisfy their needs and desires.

That isn't to say that morality is always moral.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.

Really?

How would you divide material wealth from immaterial?

You're smart - does that qualify as material wealth? It's essentially a quantifiable collection of behaviors that coalesce into a framework for social/emotional behavior, derived from academic stimuli and/or aggregated personal experience. Material wealth?

If not, wherein do you distinguish value? Does forum interaction (electronic input>fiscal currency>labor exchange>capitalistic tradition>socio-academic bureaucracy>collectivist mentalities>survival strategy>biological fulfillment...) posture as immaterial or material?
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Really?

How would you divide material wealth from immaterial?

Based on the scope of the discussion up until now, I had limited my idea of the material wealth that was being discussed to simply be monetary.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Based on the scope of the discussion up until now, I had limited my idea of the material wealth that was being discussed to simply be monetary.

Oh, I'm not necessarily trying to trump anyone's logic up to this point.

My question is one of honest curiosity - the immaterial and material are different shades of the same coin; their borders are opaque and their heritage identical.

Spirituality is thus a physical expression of behaviors; fiscal wealth the result of complex psychological desire.
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
Oh, I'm not necessarily trying to trump anyone's logic up to this point.

My question is one of honest curiosity - the immaterial and material are different shades of the same coin; their borders are opaque and their heritage identical.

Spirituality is thus a physical expression of behaviors; fiscal wealth the result of complex psychological desire.

That is an interesting perspective. But a bird in the hand is still far better than two in the bush.
 

Lateralus

New member
Joined
May 18, 2007
Messages
6,262
MBTI Type
ENTJ
Enneagram
3w4
I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.
Uhhh...ok. Wow.

As for the original argument, I think that morality is harmful to only those who don't subscribe to it, because it is only a hindrance that gets in the way of satisfying their personal needs and desires. I think that is a fair assessment since those who do subscribe to morality are risking nothing and are voluntary seceding their freedom to satisfy their needs and desires.

That isn't to say that morality is always moral.
I think you're applying your own moral code instead of looking at morality in general. I have the feeling you don't agree with the moral code of most Middle Eastern (Muslim) nations. Do you believe that not subscribing to that code is harmful?
 

Kiddo

Furry Critter with Claws
Joined
Sep 25, 2007
Messages
2,790
MBTI Type
OMNi
I think you're applying your own moral code instead of looking at morality in general. I have the feeling you don't agree with the moral code of most Middle Eastern (Muslim) nations. Do you believe that not subscribing to that code is harmful?

Yeah. If you are living in the Middle East and you don't subscribe to their moral code, then you are bound to get hung in the streets.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Who Could Blame Us?

The problem is that neither the individual or society determine morality.

Just as an individual can be good or bad, a society can be good or bad.

And it is easier to determine whether a particular individual is good or bad, than it is to determine whether a particular society is good or bad.

For instance, it is very difficult to determine whether our society here, the MBTI society, is good or bad.

We could look at the history of MBTI and see it is derived from, "Personality Types", by Carl Jung, a NAZI collaborator.

Or we could look at the function of MBTI and see it reifies living persons.

Or we could look at the institutional side of MBTI and see it is part of the New Age religion.

But none of this seems to determine whether our MBTI society here is good or bad.

It is almost as though we give our blind trust to MBTI in the belief that MBTI will look after us.

In fact MBTI is our surrogate mother.

And we really don't want to leave home.

Who could blame us?
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Good? Bad?

I'd argue that it is more difficult to assess the individual.

A society is easier to define, within the context of its ethical structure and/or historical behavior.


I've noticed you describe MBTI as a system of creative limitation. Canberra is just as guilty. America, too.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
Before We Can Fly

Good? Bad?

I've notice you describe MBTI as a system of creative limitation. Canberra is just as guilty. As is America.

Please, please! The USA is the world's most successful global economy and a liberal democracy.

While Canberra is the Capital of the 15th largest economy in the world for only 20 millions Subjects of Her Majesty. And is quite naturally a liberal democracy.

Both the USA and Australia are forces for good in the world.

It would be nice to say the same for MBTI.

But I can't even describe MBTI as a "system of creative limitation".

MBTI reifies living persons.

And we feel comfortable with this because it validates the emotional suit of armour in which we are entombed.

We are like cicadas who need to break out of our chrysalis, out of our emotional suit of armour, before we can fly.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
Please, please! The USA is the world's most successful global economy and a liberal democracy.

While Canberra is the Capital of the 15th largest economy in the world for ony 20 millions Subjects of Her Majesty. And is quite naturally a liberal democracy.

Both the USA and Australia are forces for good in the world.

It would be nice to say the same for MBTI.

But I can't even describe MBTI as a "system of creative limitation". MBTI reifies living persons.

And we feel comfortable with this because it validates the emotional suit of armour in which we are entombed.

We are like cicadas who need to break out of their chrysalis, out of our emotional suit of armour, before we can fly.

To be a force for good. How wonderful for our armor.
 

Mole

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 20, 2008
Messages
20,284
To be a force for good. How wonderful for our armor.

I really like to be understood. But you have replied before you have understood what I have written.

In turn, I can't understand why you don't feel embarrassed.
 

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
I really like to be understood. But you have replied before you have understood what I have written.

In turn, I can't understand why you don't feel embarrassed.

Your desire is reciprocal, my friend.

Deciphering your response was hampered by your clumsy use of taxonomy. I've done some work in Entomology and had hoped your tone was...light-hearted?

Chrysalis (see: Silence of the Lambs - rather trite...) are transformative patterns of development towards an ideal (eclose) that contrasts sharply with your political variables. Your...example...is quaint. I mean this kindly - I'd suggest further analysis of basic Entomology/genera Tacua before soldiering either chrysalis/larval behavior or cicada biology into your lexicon... ;)

As a quick note, the "coded" poetry you offer suggests insecurity. Instead of up-fronting your ideas, you work to veil them in subjective phrasing. Doing so creates a distance between you and your audience - if others fail to "get" you, you can safely retreat to your fortress. What you offer isn't elevation or vision - it's just poor writing.

See Wildcat for sincerely brilliant noetic verse.
 
Last edited:

Night

Boring old fossil
Joined
Nov 2, 2007
Messages
4,755
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5/8
A morally anarchist society would actually restrict freedom because the rule of law isn't designed to protect society from the individual. It's purpose is to protect the rights of the individual from tyrannical rule. Without it, you're at the mercy of the guy with the most guns. No property rights, no right to a trial, no right to your own money (so why try to make any?).
Restriction of freedom=holing yourself up in your barricaded house clutching a futile weapon in terror and hoping you starve to death before someone shoots your family.

Nicely said.
 
Top