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Thread: Morality

  1. #41
    / booyalab's Avatar
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    A morally anarchist society would actually restrict freedom because the rule of law isn't designed to protect society from the individual. It's purpose is to protect the rights of the individual from tyrannical rule. Without it, you're at the mercy of the guy with the most guns. No property rights, no right to a trial, no right to your own money (so why try to make any?).
    Restriction of freedom=holing yourself up in your barricaded house clutching a futile weapon in terror and hoping you starve to death before someone shoots your family.
    I don't wanna!

  2. #42
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I wasn't saying that good karma gives material rewards. Perhaps I should have left a blank line between that sentence and the next.
    K

    Of course you have expectations when you invest in others. The magnitude of expectations may vary between individuals, but everyone has some measure of expectation. Anyone who thinks they can truly have no expectations is in denial.
    How can either of us know if someone can be free of expectations? It's a point I'm not willing to concede or disagree with. I have faith/hope that it's possible to not hold onto things, and to let them disappear. To me, that's being free of expectation.

    No, what gives someone peace of mind varies between individuals. Doing 'good' does not necessarily grant peace of mind.
    Maybe not "necessarily," but you're arguing against a strawman. I didn't say it was necessarily, and what I'm saying works just as well without that word.

  3. #43
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    You don't value material wealth? I don't believe that for a second. You would die if you had no material wealth, so it has some value to you.
    I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.

    As for the original argument, I think that morality is harmful to only those who don't subscribe to it, because it is only a hindrance that gets in the way of satisfying their personal needs and desires. I think that is a fair assessment since those who do subscribe to morality are risking nothing and are voluntary seceding their freedom to satisfy their needs and desires.

    That isn't to say that morality is always moral.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #44
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.
    Really?

    How would you divide material wealth from immaterial?

    You're smart - does that qualify as material wealth? It's essentially a quantifiable collection of behaviors that coalesce into a framework for social/emotional behavior, derived from academic stimuli and/or aggregated personal experience. Material wealth?

    If not, wherein do you distinguish value? Does forum interaction (electronic input>fiscal currency>labor exchange>capitalistic tradition>socio-academic bureaucracy>collectivist mentalities>survival strategy>biological fulfillment...) posture as immaterial or material?

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Really?

    How would you divide material wealth from immaterial?
    Based on the scope of the discussion up until now, I had limited my idea of the material wealth that was being discussed to simply be monetary.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  6. #46
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Based on the scope of the discussion up until now, I had limited my idea of the material wealth that was being discussed to simply be monetary.
    Oh, I'm not necessarily trying to trump anyone's logic up to this point.

    My question is one of honest curiosity - the immaterial and material are different shades of the same coin; their borders are opaque and their heritage identical.

    Spirituality is thus a physical expression of behaviors; fiscal wealth the result of complex psychological desire.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Oh, I'm not necessarily trying to trump anyone's logic up to this point.

    My question is one of honest curiosity - the immaterial and material are different shades of the same coin; their borders are opaque and their heritage identical.

    Spirituality is thus a physical expression of behaviors; fiscal wealth the result of complex psychological desire.
    That is an interesting perspective. But a bird in the hand is still far better than two in the bush.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  8. #48
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    I didn't know you included food, water, and shelter in your defintion of material wealth. Yes, I value my self preservation. But I don't especially value material wealth that goes beyond that.
    Uhhh...ok. Wow.

    As for the original argument, I think that morality is harmful to only those who don't subscribe to it, because it is only a hindrance that gets in the way of satisfying their personal needs and desires. I think that is a fair assessment since those who do subscribe to morality are risking nothing and are voluntary seceding their freedom to satisfy their needs and desires.

    That isn't to say that morality is always moral.
    I think you're applying your own moral code instead of looking at morality in general. I have the feeling you don't agree with the moral code of most Middle Eastern (Muslim) nations. Do you believe that not subscribing to that code is harmful?
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    I think you're applying your own moral code instead of looking at morality in general. I have the feeling you don't agree with the moral code of most Middle Eastern (Muslim) nations. Do you believe that not subscribing to that code is harmful?
    Yeah. If you are living in the Middle East and you don't subscribe to their moral code, then you are bound to get hung in the streets.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #50
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    Default Who Could Blame Us?

    The problem is that neither the individual or society determine morality.

    Just as an individual can be good or bad, a society can be good or bad.

    And it is easier to determine whether a particular individual is good or bad, than it is to determine whether a particular society is good or bad.

    For instance, it is very difficult to determine whether our society here, the MBTI society, is good or bad.

    We could look at the history of MBTI and see it is derived from, "Personality Types", by Carl Jung, a NAZI collaborator.

    Or we could look at the function of MBTI and see it reifies living persons.

    Or we could look at the institutional side of MBTI and see it is part of the New Age religion.

    But none of this seems to determine whether our MBTI society here is good or bad.

    It is almost as though we give our blind trust to MBTI in the belief that MBTI will look after us.

    In fact MBTI is our surrogate mother.

    And we really don't want to leave home.

    Who could blame us?

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