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Thread: Morality

  1. #31
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    It is more important for you to answer the question yourself. You can do this easily by reading the book.

    I have given you the address so you can even read it on the screen in front of you.
    Forgive me, but I don't see an address. Just the title and author of a book.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  2. #32
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by booyalab View Post
    I disagree, as evidenced by the fact that murder is neither beneficial to society nor the individual who's being murdered. As far as the murderer goes, his crime may be beneficial by whatever psychopathic rationale he subscribes to, but if the justice system isn't there to give him a dose of his own medicine, there's probably a few of the family members of his victims who'd be more than happy to oblige. On the other hand, if you don't murder anyone....you don't have to worry about anyone plotting revenge. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
    It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  3. #33
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.
    What I don't seem to understand is how you are measuring "personal gain". The way you describe it, it sounds like it is only a measure of material wealth and power. Many people, myself included, don't value those things, and so it is inconceivable that could be considered "personal gain".
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  4. #34
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    What I don't seem to understand is how you are measuring "personal gain". The way you describe it, it sounds like it is only a measure of material wealth and power. Many people, myself included, don't value those things, and so it is inconceivable that could be considered "personal gain".
    You don't value material wealth? I don't believe that for a second. You would die if you had no material wealth, so it has some value to you.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    It sounds like you actually agree with me. The outlaw of murder is beneficial for society and individuals benefit when others follow the rules and don't commit murder. However, by limiting your choices, you're limiting your opportunities for personal gain. Murder is probably the most extreme example of this.
    Maybe you should alter your original assertion to "morality is beneficial to society, hypocrisy is beneficial to individuals"

    Anyways, do you realize that part of the purpose of the legal system is to protect criminals as much as to protect victims? The old Hebrew "eye for an eye" principle was intended as a merciful way of cutting down on people murdering each other over petty grievances. When you fuck people over, you can only feel truly safe from negative consequences if you assume that no one else is capable of doing the same thing to you..or worse. That's why it's so easy to kill someone if you're a psychopath. Empathy can be rational.

    So assuming you agree that other people don't like to be fucked over, why do you still believe that an immoral action is necessarily in your best interest?
    I don't wanna!

  6. #36
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    As a premise I'd propose that a moral is a mutually agreed society meme - the ideas that society as a whole agree are necessary for smooth functioning. Like an updated ten commandments.

    Given that, I see no link to individual success. A moral might also be of gain to an individual, it might not. Just depends on circumstances. It could be convergent with society's needs. It's just not possible to simplify this.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    As a premise I'd propose that a moral is a mutually agreed society meme - the ideas that society as a whole agree are necessary for smooth functioning. Like an updated ten commandments.

    Given that, I see no link to individual success. A moral might also be of gain to an individual, it might not. Just depends on circumstances. It could be convergent with society's needs. It's just not possible to simplify this.
    The link to individual success is that morals limit choice, which in turn limits opportunity.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  8. #38
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    The link to individual success is that morals limit choice, which in turn limits opportunity.
    Opportunity for success or failure, though. So why is this inherently negative?

    Eg society morals will often suggest committing suicide for no good reason is immoral. Result individual is discouraged from topping themself when a moody teenager. Is this limited opportunity negative?

  9. #39
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geoff View Post
    Opportunity for success or failure, though. So why is this inherently negative?

    Eg society morals will often suggest committing suicide for no good reason is immoral. Result individual is discouraged from topping themself when a moody teenager. Is this limited opportunity negative?
    All restriction of choice is negative, whether it crosses a moral boundary or not. It's up to the individual to decide which choices are in his own best interest.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  10. #40
    Lallygag Moderator Geoff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    All restriction of choice is negative, whether it crosses a moral boundary or not. It's up to the individual to decide which choices are in his own best interest.
    Why is that to their personal advantage? Society can help them make decisions that are in their own interests. It's win-win. If a society moral restricts free-choice when that free choice is negative (eg suicide) that must usually be to their best interest.

    Why shouldn't society be better placed, in some cases, to decide what an individual needs for their best interest. Again, my teenage suicide is a classic example.

    I hear what you are saying, by the way, I just don't understand why for a communal species like humanity, individiuality results in better self interest.
    It has its pros and cons, depending on circumstances.

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