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Thread: Morality

  1. #21
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    Oh, you aren't talking about just morals, you are talking about character. And by character I mean, "the inherent complex of attributes that determine a person's moral and ethical actions and reactions." Obviously, the particular attribute you are debating here is integrity (as in honesty or virtue).

    The fact of the matter is, that materially, people can get ahead by sacrificing their integrity. However, as I said in my earlier post, they face shame (a painful feeling of dishonor, disgrace, or condemnation) and if that doesn't deter them, then they will begin sacrificing their much more valuable opportunities for social bonds and relationships for the less valuable opportunities of material gain. People generally don't like being associated with liars and cheats because it is difficult to trust them.
    With how vast our society is, it's pretty easy to avoid those consequences.

    So people who sacrifice their integrity for material gain may not be sociopaths, but they are certainly idiots.
    Are they? Or are they just taking advantage of the system?

    Of course, if people want to gamble with their lives by living a lie, then I suppose that is their choice. The payout will never be worth it if they got caught in the process of doing so. And they aren't just cheating themselves, but anyone who trusts or believes in them.
    Again, you're taking this to an extreme. Your entire life doesn't have to be a lie in order to gain from being dishonest in certain situations.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  2. #22
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    With how vast our society is, it's pretty easy to avoid those consequences.
    It catches up to people. Whether it is through deteriorating mental health because they have ignored their shame for so long, or people eventually catching on to their lack of integrity and ostracizing them. If it never does catch up to them, then good for them, but they will always live with the knowledge that that was the only way they could get there.

    Are they? Or are they just taking advantage of the system?
    Yeah, they are idiots. The reality is it is a slippery slope. It starts with one little lie, then becomes big lies, then becomes small crimes, and so forth.

    I had a roommate who was the perfect little Mormon boy. Then his XBox broke down and he went to Walmart and bought a new one and returned the broken one to the store by using the box in which the new one had come in. No big deal. Walmart is a big corporation. But once he saw he could get away with that he thought he could try other things. He started smoking pot. Nothing bad happened. So he decided, why not try selling pot? So he called his parents, lied about needing some money, and bought a pound of weed which he sold for a decent profit. He paid back his parents, and he got away with it. And on and on it went to bigger and bigger crimes, until eventually got to the point that he was hurting people.

    What was the purpose of that? Look at the kind of person he became. Is that really "getting ahead"?

    Again, you're taking this to an extreme. Your entire life doesn't have to be a lie in order to gain from being dishonest in certain situations.
    Cheating and lying are learned behaviors. Once a person gets away with them and effectively get a positive reward, they are infinitely more likely to do it again. It is as simple as that.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
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  3. #23
    Tenured roisterer SolitaryWalker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    So if raping babies makes a child molestor happy, you would consider it moral? (assuming he could get away with it?).
    Yes, that'd be moral if the child molestor is demented to the point where there is no way for him to function like a normal human being. Functioning like a normal human being is desirable because such a lifestyle is more likely to lead to happiness than that of molestation. Another example is, I would consider euthanasia ethically justifiable for a cancer patient as nothing makes him happier than this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    Would you encourage him to do it if he wouldn't get caught??).
    No, because this causes us problems in maintaining an orderly society.
    "Do not argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience." -- Mark Twain

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  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Morality is beneficial to society, but harmful to the individual. Agree? Disagree? Think I'm just an ass?
    I disagree, as evidenced by the fact that murder is neither beneficial to society nor the individual who's being murdered. As far as the murderer goes, his crime may be beneficial by whatever psychopathic rationale he subscribes to, but if the justice system isn't there to give him a dose of his own medicine, there's probably a few of the family members of his victims who'd be more than happy to oblige. On the other hand, if you don't murder anyone....you don't have to worry about anyone plotting revenge. Seems like a pretty sweet deal to me.
    I don't wanna!

  5. #25
    Senior Member Lateralus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    It catches up to people. Whether it is through deteriorating mental health because they have ignored their shame for so long, or people eventually catching on to their lack of integrity and ostracizing them. If it never does catch up to them, then good for them, but they will always live with the knowledge that that was the only way they could get there.
    Or perhaps it was the method that required the least effort.

    Yeah, they are idiots. The reality is it is a slippery slope. It starts with one little lie, then becomes big lies, then becomes small crimes, and so forth.

    I had a roommate who was the perfect little Mormon boy. Then his XBox broke down and he went to Walmart and bought a new one and returned the broken one to the store by using the box in which the new one had come in. No big deal. Walmart is a big corporation. But once he saw he could get away with that he thought he could try other things. He started smoking pot. Nothing bad happened. So he decided, why not try selling pot? So he called his parents, lied about needing some money, and bought a pound of weed which he sold for a decent profit. He paid back his parents, and he got away with it. And on and on it went to bigger and bigger crimes, until eventually got to the point that he was hurting people.

    What was the purpose of that? Look at the kind of person he became. Is that really "getting ahead"?

    Cheating and lying are learned behaviors. Once a person gets away with them and effectively get a positive reward, they are infinitely more likely to do it again. It is as simple as that.
    The slippery slope argument.
    "We grow up thinking that beliefs are something to be proud of, but they're really nothing but opinions one refuses to reconsider. Beliefs are easy. The stronger your beliefs are, the less open you are to growth and wisdom, because "strength of belief" is only the intensity with which you resist questioning yourself. As soon as you are proud of a belief, as soon as you think it adds something to who you are, then you've made it a part of your ego."

  6. #26
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lateralus View Post
    Or perhaps it was the method that required the least effort.
    Funny. I've found in the past that cheating and lying have actually turned out to be more work than if had I actually just done the work because you have to live with the results in the long term. Often to the point that you have to do more lying and more cheating to get by. It's an idiotic short term solution.

    The slippery slope argument.
    It's the ultimate morality argument. You thought you could start a thread on morality and avoid it? If it wasn't proven true over and over again by experiences like the one I just told, then it wouldn't be such a strong argument.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    When has child rape ever been moral?
    Do read, "The History of Childhood", by Lloyd DeMause.

  8. #28
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    Default "Tomorrow belongs to me".

    Personal morality is about being a good little boy or a good little girl, where the great moral crimes are committed by society, like slavery or sexism or war or imperialism or the abuse of children.

    Good little boys and good little girls only conform to the morality of their society. It their society is immoral so they will be. But they will have no conscience about it. As far as they are concerned, they are being good.

    I will never forget that good German boy singing, "Tomorrow belongs to me".

    You can look in the mirror by clicking on YouTube - Cabaret - Tomorrow Belongs to Me

  9. #29
    Furry Critter with Claws Kiddo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    Do read, "The History of Childhood", by Lloyd DeMause.
    You can't just answer the question yourself?
    Quote Originally Posted by Silently Honest View Post
    OMNi: Wisdom at the cost of Sanity.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kiddo View Post
    You can't just answer the question yourself?
    It is more important for you to answer the question yourself. You can do this easily by reading the book.

    I have given you the address so you can even read it on the screen in front of you.

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