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  1. #21
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I haven't tried to explain it to you in particular before. Just countless other people, and 99% of the time, it fails.

    It's not an Ni thing. Words are simply not adequate.

    Let's take what you asked earlier for example:

    Will you be happy? I cannot tell you that.

    There is no "Do x, don't do y, and get z result" because by consciously trying to do something in this manner, you change the outcome. I cannot say "do this and you will be happy" because if you are looking for 'happy', in a result oriented fashion from my precise words, you may in fact cause yourself to lose it.

    I see that you are reading all kinds of things from The Bible to philosophy but these things are traps. If a book could tell you what you need by its words alone, someone would have found it by now.

    You need more than words. You need lived experience. I think this is why westerners continually fail at eastern philosophy.
    I think I might have an inkling of what you might be trying to say. Yes; can't really put it into words.
    I guess, it's just a 'knack' that comes, or something like that.

    Part of this topic is from me growing really tired of all these formulations Westerns put out. Everything is a "formula", basically. The formula for success, the formula for happiness, the formula for being "right with God", etc., and it just becomes something to brag on and put down others who haven't mastered it (like among many Christians, it's what they call "victory", and it's not even what victory originally mean in scripture; it's basically having a good attitude toward life, and making this exclusive to Christians through "the power of God", and anyone who doesn't have that good attitude is probably not "sanctified", or whatever). Yet, it's as I said, a formula, and one that sells to the masses; and it's always made to sound simpler and more easy than it really is.
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  2. #22
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    @Eric B "So in this view, I imagine roses always had thorns, but it was our experience of them as "painful" that fulfilled the curse of Gen. 3:16-19? But the thorns were still in themselves created "good", and it is only man who began seeing them as evil, because they were inconvenient to us, and we had this need to master creation (which was instilled by God, but became corrupted with "good and evil" knowledge, so that we then were tying to fill a sense of fear and deficiency in ourselves)" <---this is pretty much my belief about life. The only thing I would change is that I'm not really at a personal level with God, I have always taken that saying "Man was made in the image of God" literally and took that as meaning, we all have a piece of God or are God and one collective soul...obviously still not decided on that yet...but either way they both lead to us all being connected and they both lead us to being creators. So it is our perception of things. I literally talk myself down from anger issues I have with people...which is from the pain they've caused me because something didn't go my way or what not, so an expectation. All I have to say is that these people are doing the best they can at this given moment, and I truly believe that more and more and just "accept" they're on a different path or at a different spot on the path. All that being said I have not have time to read all of the posts to this WONDERFUL thread ha ha cause i'm at my friend's house...so I am not sure if i'm repeating anything or not. Either way you should read/watch anything with Bruce Lipton he talks about epi-genetics and read the book called Frequency the power of personal vibration. Or maybe even Dr. Wayne Dyer...although he has more of a religious point of view...which I don't know if that's what you're looking for. Great post btw! I totally have had the same problems with expectations and wanted to solve the problems that arise from them. I learned about the law of attraction and it really has changed my life, it's how we create our future. Anyways I am having a hard time letting go of things, and always have but now i believe i have had actual physical pain because of this so each day i'm more motivated to let go...it's very difficult even with all these tools, i hate being a J right now in this time of my life.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  3. #23
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    "Law of attraction" (Wikipedia):
    For example, if a person opened an envelope expecting to see a bill, then according to the law of attraction, the envelope would "confirm" those thoughts and contain a bill when opened. A person who decided to instead expect a cheque might, under the same law, find a cheque instead of a bill.

    The problem I have with that, is that it is just creating more expectations that are almost guaranteed to fail (at least half the time), and what's in the envelope is already there, regardless of what you choose to believe about it. It's basically a kind of gamble or game of chance. This is exactly the problem I've been having with expressions of Christianity, where you're supposed to have "faith" in some sort of outcome, and when it doesn't work out, you must either blame yourself ("didn't have enough faith"), or God is "testing" you, or conclude you just don't know what God is doing.
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  4. #24
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    I think I might have an inkling of what you might be trying to say. Yes; can't really put it into words.
    I guess, it's just a 'knack' that comes, or something like that.

    Part of this topic is from me growing really tired of all these formulations Westerns put out. Everything is a "formula", basically. The formula for success, the formula for happiness, the formula for being "right with God", etc., and it just becomes something to brag on and put down others who haven't mastered it (like among many Christians, it's what they call "victory", and it's not even what victory originally mean in scripture; it's basically having a good attitude toward life, and making this exclusive to Christians through "the power of God", and anyone who doesn't have that good attitude is probably not "sanctified", or whatever). Yet, it's as I said, a formula, and one that sells to the masses; and it's always made to sound simpler and more easy than it really is.
    Yeah it sounds like you can see it. Formulations are a big part of the problem.

    People are always trying to do and become through impersonal, one size fits all instructions. But one size does not fit all. One size doesn't even always fit one.

    Even Zen Buddhists saw this happening in Buddhism - people were getting too caught up in the words and scriptures and were losing it. So they came up with Zazen, and koan solving.

    A koan is a question or short story with a typically paradoxical answer or meaning that one arrives at through lateral thinking. A master issues a koan to the student and expects an actual response - not the 'correct' response, but the response that shows insight. It's looking for a direct realization that goes beyond standard rational thinking.

    It basically breaks this formulaic tendency for people to rely on words and premade answers.

  5. #25
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    "Law of attraction" (Wikipedia):
    For example, if a person opened an envelope expecting to see a bill, then according to the law of attraction, the envelope would "confirm" those thoughts and contain a bill when opened. A person who decided to instead expect a cheque might, under the same law, find a cheque instead of a bill.

    The problem I have with that, is that it is just creating more expectations that are almost guaranteed to fail (at least half the time), and what's in the envelope is already there, regardless of what you choose to believe about it. It's basically a kind of gamble or game of chance. This is exactly the problem I've been having with expressions of Christianity, where you're supposed to have "faith" in some sort of outcome, and when it doesn't work out, you must either blame yourself ("didn't have enough faith"), or God is "testing" you, or conclude you just don't know what God is doing.
    I am not disagreeing with you on what you're saying.

    I feel like I need to put out a disclosure of some sort...I just don't want to offend anyone I guess.

    I just beleive that there is information that goes further into the law of attraction that you need to know to understand how it actually works...in no way am i trying to "convert" you or what not...but I will explain my understandings of it.

    -If you just think a simple thought in the positive present tense and write it down...first it will raise your chances of having it happen. But you're right...at least 50% of the time it doesn't mean anything happens
    -The real problem is that our values, feelings, beliefs etc...are held in our subconcious.
    -our concious mind is out dealing with 'problem solving' most of the time.
    -underneath though there are a lot of deep seeded beliefs that are there controling us...and then we usually have very unconcious behaviors that result from them

    That being said. The only way to really fully be in control of what you attract, is having a good amount of "feeling, belief, value, etc." about said person/place/or thing.

    If you don't ACTUALLY BELIEVE you'll get a check in the mail...you wont.

    Now...that being said...what also plays into this is...if you focus on the bills...if you say, "I don't want bills" you're putting energy into the bills..."energy flows where the attention goes"
    So the reason people have such a hard time with this is becuase you have to rewrite all your negative thoughts and then actually believe the positive...which would mean re-programming your subconcious mind.

    That's why if you read/watch anything with Bruce Lipton, he goes into the bit about the subconcious mind, If you've ever watched the movie "The Secret" they go into the need to have feelings behing what you're thinking. And that book about Frequency goes into letting go.

    But anyways that's just my opinion.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  6. #26
    WhoCares
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    To simplify things for myself as I went through my own MLC, I came to realise that life (other people, events, circumstances, anything not me basically) is like the ocean. It does what it will and I am without influence to change it's ebb and flow. I can choose however to learn to surf or I can continue to be dumped by the waves. Surfing doesn't guarantee I'll never get dumped, but it does mean I have the ability to ride the highs and lows to the best of my ability which is better than getting smashed continually.

    As little children we are taught that if we scream loud enough someone will come and fix things for us. As adults, we have to let go of that notion and realise that some things will need to be accepted and weathered despite our best efforts to create a life worth living.

    Re: Law Of Attraction, I'm a believer but....

    The Secret was quite possibly the worst representation of that I have ever encountered. It gave a very false idea that if you just send out mind waves about something it would completely fall into your lap. Anyone who's ever bought a lottery ticket will tell you, it doesn't work like that.

    LOA works more like gravity. It's an ever present tendency for like to attract like AND it responds to your dominant vibration (or signal). We all want lots of stuff, we all wnat it with loads of intent and yearning too. But we're all basically really busy being pissy with life about one thing or another. So even though our desire might be gigantic the reality is that we are existing in a vibration (signal) of pissiness so our big dream is unlikely to become our reality by LOA. You cannot get what you are not a match to quite simply.

    I have intended quite a lot of things deliberately into my life using principles of LOA. Many of them I have gotten, none of them ever materialised out of thin air though. The practical side of it was that my desire and subsequent match to it set off a chain of events which eventually saw me get what I wanted. Some would say that's not LOA it's you being focused, it's coincidence it's luck. I would agree with all of those statements. I don't see LOA as a magcial genie waiting to grant my wishes. It's a natural force like gravity that you learn to leverage or not for creating desirable outcomes in life.

  7. #27
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    From those statements, it looks like it is a combination of becoming more attuned to what is more likely to happen (e.g. lowering the expectations connected to the "pissy" attitude) and "meeting it halfway" by one's own effort (and I guess, when it involves other people, which is a lot of the time, it can also include "vibes" you send off).
    Would you say that sums it up?

    Would you also say this suits an Ni perspective? (since both of you happen to be NTJ's, and this sounds sort of like something an Ni user would talk about).
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  8. #28
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    From those statements, it looks like it is a combination of becoming more attuned to what is more likely to happen (e.g. lowering the expectations connected to the "pissy" attitude) and "meeting it halfway" by one's own effort (and I guess, when it involves other people, which is a lot of the time, it can also include "vibes" you send off).
    Would you say that sums it up?

    Would you also say this suits an Ni perspective? (since both of you happen to be NTJ's, and this sounds sort of like something an Ni user would talk about).
    I'm not sure about the part about becoming attuned to what's likely to happen, that sounds like the gateway to lowering expectations...When you're talking about vibrations...we are always sending them off, everything and everyone all the time. So with the LOA if you're sending off the vibe/frequency that you're not getting what you want...like attracts like...you don't get what you want...so you have to accept what's coming. not predict/hope. just accept and be grateful for what you already have...and let the "bad times/vibes" pass....like what Who Cares was talking about similar to riding a wave...all waves pass...just let them...and while they are passing...be happy so that you attract more happy.

    For me it's all about reconnecting with the soul/source. whatever that may be. A higher power that I believe we are all a part of...I don't believe we're seperate from "God" <---I don't know if I agree with that term though because of all the pre-concieved notions about it.

    Anyways, I think thinking about all this stuff and believing in it, is totally my Ni talking, most of the things I read about LOA and stuff like that ...I don't have to try very hard to manifest things from it. It really interests me this topic...I get so excited about it...because I feel like it connects MBTI to my ideaology and everything, so it's awesome. Anyways the hard part for me is the letting go, the judger in me is like all or nothing and very adament about not giving up control. And then the Se comes into play by sort of "riding the wave" just appreciating the perception sort of...kinda a bad description...lol But that's why it's so hard for me ha ha. Becuase it's hard for me to stay in the moment all the time and remember to just be happy at every moment so that I can attract happy...that was something I really liked when learning about the LOA, that the past didn't matter. Only the present can attrace the future...and everything that you did iin your past led you to where you were today...so for me it's very inspiring because I think about the future a lot, and want that to be better than the present or past and ...LOA pretty much says to me what happened in the past is who we used to be... and we can start over anytime we want.
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

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  9. #29
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    "Vibes" only seem to make sense with people (or possibly animals as well). People can pick up vibes. So if as a young guy, you're too "needy" to have a girl (which will be expressed by the negative thinking of not having what you want), that will send off a vibe, that the girl picks up as a possible negative trait, and for some reason (possibly not even conscious) turn away. Similar dynamic with employers. If you're more confident like you don't "need" this; you have an abundance you're there to "give" of, then you'll look better to whoever you're pursuing. (Seems to be set up that "those who [already] got shall get, those who've not shall lose...", and maybe that's some kind of natural selection principle or something).

    But I don't see how this would work for something impersonal like a bill or check in an envelope that the sender probably is not even aware of your positive or negative attitude in life.


    Other thoughts,
    It seems the world is geared to place burdens on individuals, and excuse systems.
    In systems, people can just pass the buck to other individuals, esp those with more power and influence, and therefore it's harder then to pin down responsibility on anyone. Other systems can challenge systems (e. g. Conservative “angry taxpayers” against the “liberal government”) and have a better chance of having some influence, (yet often, just end up stalemated).

    I see my problem is I have always been “out there” as basically trying to be a one-man system going against all others.
    I have never been able to get over the “hump” of acceptance by a group (which often involves some sort of qualification), and then the bending of the will to become fully apart of it.
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  10. #30
    Unapologetic being Evolving Transparency's Avatar
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    @Eric B hmm, I often think about a similar subject...not sure if it relates but I'm trying to understand what you mean exactly. So when thoughts come to me like "I am not accepted by these people" or something...like at work or even a group of friends...my next thought is crap I need new people in my life that are kool or what not...then I start to say how can it be all the "other" people...if im the only one not fitting in...then I start to blame it on myself instead of the group...and then i practice LOA and other things...I have found that people i hate leave the country...two people have done that...I personally believe everything happens for a reason...so I believe it's working for me...if it doesn't work though I come to the conclusion that I just have not met the right people...and that's what it sounds like the problem may be if you dont want to bend to fit, then you need to find people that are willing to accept you and that you're willing to accept...which would mean they would have to be mature...it's hard to find actually. I also try to think to myself that my friends either have an unconditional love towards me or they don't...I can usually "feel" this out. And I know my boundaries then. I also reciprocate this to them(unconditional love). In any relationship though, it's good to know where the boundaries are...like someone can do something really shitty to me and I will immediately forgive and be happy if they say...but I did this or am doing this to make up for it...that to me allows my expectations to fall but then come back up, realizing that they are just human, and they're only doing the best they can at that given time...and I usually appreciate their intentions and find that they do actually have a heart...In reality I have not once met someone that has said "Let me do this to make up for what I did, I'm sorry" usually just get a sorry...so good luck with that lol... Am I, at all, touching on what you're saying? lol
    "Once the game is over, the Pawn and the King go back into the same box"

    Freedom isn't free.
    "Freedom is the right to tell people what they do not want to hear." ~ Orwell
    I'm that person that embodies pretty much everything that you hate. Might as well get used to it.
    Unapologetically bonding in an uninhibited, propelled manner
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