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  1. #1
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default Budd Dwyer : Hey Man Nice Shot

    Quote Originally Posted by Filter
    I wish I would've met you
    Now its a little late
    What you could've taught me
    I could've saved some face
    They think that your early ending
    Was all wrong
    For the most part they're right
    But look how they all got strong
    Thats why I say hey man nice shot
    What a good shot man
    A man
    Has gun
    Hey man
    Have fun
    Nice shot
    Now that the smokes gone
    And the air is all clear
    Those who were right there
    Got a new kind of fear
    You'd fight and you were right
    But they were just to strong
    They'd stick it in your face
    And let you smell what they consider wrong
    Thats why I say hey man nice, nice shot
    What a good shot man
    A man
    Has gun
    Hey man
    Have fun
    Nice shot
    I wish I would've met you
    I wish I would've met you
    I'd say
    Nice shot
    A song about the persecution and suicide of Budd Dwyer.

    The question is :- Is suicide ever a justified response? Is there a point where such sacrifice is noble and no longer merely an easy escape?

    Oh and general discussion over the event would be cool too as I know little about it myself, I'm only just finding out about it now.
    Last edited by Xander; 05-23-2007 at 03:31 AM.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  2. #2

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The question is :- Is suicide ever a justified response? Is there a point where such sacrifice is noble and no longer merely an easy escape?
    We're all on our way out. It may offend our sensibilities to hasten the process, but that doesnt mean people don't have the right to act in accordance with their will.

    Some see it as free will. Some see it as being held hostage by a chemical imbalance, and therefore clouding 'true' judgement.

    As an observer, I think my only responsibility is accepting those around me, and trying to affect their lives in the best way possible. That may never be enough - who knows? You can't quantify this shit.

    I don't think words like 'sacrifice' and 'noble' help much, though - they tend to obscure.

  3. #3
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    We're all on our way out. It may offend our sensibilities to hasten the process, but that doesnt mean people don't have the right to act in accordance with their will.

    Some see it as free will. Some see it as being held hostage by a chemical imbalance, and therefore clouding 'true' judgement.

    As an observer, I think my only responsibility is accepting those around me, and trying to affect their lives in the best way possible. That may never be enough - who knows? You can't quantify this shit.

    I don't think words like 'sacrifice' and 'noble' help much, though - they tend to obscure.
    Obscure what? If someone gives something up with the intention of benefiting others then what else do you call it?

    There is of course the factor of people misinterpreting such things and emulating without understanding but hell in an age of handguns and power tools what's the difference? Stupid is as stupid does.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  4. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Obscure what? If someone gives something up with the intention of benefiting others then what else do you call it?

    There is of course the factor of people misinterpreting such things and emulating without understanding but hell in an age of handguns and power tools what's the difference? Stupid is as stupid does.
    How is suicide sacrificial, in the sense of how we normally view sacrifice? Most suicide is because people are messed up in the head and want to end their own misery. I think it bears repeating I don't harbour any particular judgement against those who commit suicide, but I think ascribing the act certain values just to legitimize it is somehow false.

  5. #5
    shoshaku jushaku rivercrow's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    I don't think words like 'sacrifice' and 'noble' help much, though - they tend to obscure.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Obscure what? If someone gives something up with the intention of benefiting others then what else do you call it?
    Calling anything "noble" or a "sacrifice" is making a value-based judgment about the action.
    Who rises in the morning, looks in the mirror and says, "I think I will do something stupid today?" -- James Hollis
    If people never did silly things nothing intelligent would ever get done. -- Ludwig Wittgenstein
    Whaling is illegal in Oklahoma.

  6. #6
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    How is suicide sacrificial, in the sense of how we normally view sacrifice?
    You mean cause there's no burden to bear for the individual doing the act then it's not sacrifice? I can see the logic (you'd have got on well with my mother ) but in certain situations there's nothing more you can give. Also the burden may not be suffered after the act but I'd reckon it most certainly is leading up to it. It's not like most people just go "Aha I have an idea" and jump off a building (judicious use of sarcasm).
    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    Most suicide is because people are messed up in the head and want to end their own misery.
    That's not sacrifice though is it. That's "taking the easy way out" (as my mother put it once).
    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    I think ascribing the act certain values just to legitimize it is somehow false.
    Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  7. #7
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by rivercrow View Post
    Calling anything "noble" or a "sacrifice" is making a value-based judgment about the action.
    There is no objectivity involved in suicide though so I think such words are well chosen.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  8. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    Most suicide is because people are messed up in the head and want to end their own misery.
    That's not sacrifice though is it.
    Indeed, that's my whole point.

    I don't understand how you're structuring suicide as a sacrificial act, because I think under most circumstances suicide is an escape, and therefore is a freeing act.

    (and therein lies the mess, religious views aside; the 'victim' has achieved their good at the expense of those who are left behind. The latter feel that a wrong has been committed against them and the potentiality of life for the victim, yet realize the victim's consent means they have no say on the morality of the action.)

    Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)
    I wouldn't consciously disagree.

  9. #9
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    Indeed, that's my whole point.

    I don't understand how you're structuring suicide as a sacrificial act, because I think under most circumstances suicide is an escape, and therefore is a freeing act.
    Did you read the quoted wikipedia article? I think that case in particular shows how the act can be defined as sacrificing.
    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    (and therein lies the mess, religious views aside; the 'victim' has achieved their good at the expense of those who are left behind. The latter feel that a wrong has been committed against them and the potentiality of life for the victim, yet realize the victim's consent means they have no say on the morality of the action.)
    Exactly. I think that a good portion of all the outrage is more to do with the lack of control people feel than any firm objection which isn't entirely self centred.
    Quote Originally Posted by sundowning View Post
    I wouldn't consciously disagree.
    *whispers* Which bit?
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  10. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    Did you read the quoted wikipedia article? I think that case in particular shows how the act can be defined as sacrificing.
    Guiltily, no. I was responding on general terms.


    *whispers* Which bit?
    This bit:

    Regardless of whether those values justify it or not they are the motivating factors. It seems quite capricious to say (as society does [ie not you personally]) that killing someone can be reasoned as a good act for all concerned but killing yourself is never the correct course of action. I fear that with such reasoning you could strip many medals from war heroes as their acts can be reasoned as suicidal and their survival as mere chance. (I know I'm pushing this down a semi slippery slope but I think that certain caveats need to be established.)
    (And note that I didn't necessarily agree - I probably wouldn't advance this view myself under any circumstances, but I can't say I think it's wrong, either.)

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