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  1. #51
    Sniffles
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Interesting I have never heard that theory. Can you provide some literature on that one?
    This may help:
    http://www.hurleydonson.com/religious_accusations.htm

    One excerpt that deals with this issue:
    Pacwa disagrees that there are "nine faces of God" of which each Enneagram type is a distortion. He claims "God does not have nine faces. . . . [T]here are three coequal persons in the one God [and] these three persons are neither multiplying nor subdividing into nine faces." Pacwa apparently does not know that the source of this image of the "nine faces of God" is the mystical Hebrew teaching called the Kabbalah. The Christian perspective of which we are aware both respects its Jewish roots and respects the Jewish faith as a sister faith to Christianity. Also, the word "faces" is a metaphor for "attributes." These terms are used interchangeably in the Kabbalah. Thus, the Enneagram relies on ancient Kabbalistic tradition for saying there are nine faces of God. We will deal with Pacwa’s problem with distorting the face of God in the next point.
    Elsewhere they explain how the nine types are also derived from the "nine passions" outlined by the Desert Fathers.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Keps Mnemnosyne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallulah View Post

    I also agree with the poster (@coriolanus)? that said to remember that the religion you were raised in is not the only religion out there. See if there's something that fits you better, or see if no religion fits you better. But you don't have to stay in the religion you were raised in. Especially if it's causing you pain. If God exists, I don't believe he will care one bit which particular church you joined. In fact, I kind of live by the Atheist's Wager, rather than Pascal's.
    You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.

    That makes a lot more sense to me than fire and brimstone and finding and accepting one god over another.

    I do recommend doing some reading on why humans believe in god and religion in the first place. It helps to have a psychological perspective.
    I agree with the main points of Tallulah's post. Even as an atheist turned Catholic I still live by the atheist wager although I would change the first part slightly to "If there is no god, you have lost nothing, and will know yourself throughout your life as someone trying to be a good person."
    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    @The Great One

    You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

    I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.
    I am slightly surprised no one has asked you to at least clarify your post. I am hoping I read your post incorrectly. The Great One is asking for help, and knows he needs it. Is calling him a sociopath or hoping that his ultimate fate (death) will come sooner, going to help him at all? Trying to tell him to re-examine how his lies affected others and needs to have his own morality besides hell is a valid point. But is not hoping for another's death not hypocritical against your point of having moral responsibility include others? If The Great One died in the soon to be future, would you have been happy?

    As a sidenote, there is a difference between amoral and immoral.
    Love wouldn't exist without loneliness to inspire it.

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  3. #53
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keps Mnemnosyne View Post
    I am slightly surprised no one has asked you to at least clarify your post.
    I thought I was quite clear.

    I am hoping I read your post incorrectly.
    Then it's no wonder you misunderstood.

    The Great One is asking for help, and knows he needs it.
    Yes, but help with what? What is The Great One's problem? This is important, because we can't help him unless we understand what his problem is. The majority of users so far have not addressed The Great One's problem, but have instead just shared stories about their own struggles with theology, religion, and family. That's all well and good, but it's also besides the point.

    The Great One expressed himself rather clearly. His problem is whether eternal damnation awaits him in the afterlife for his sins. It's a frighteningly pragmatic concern: he basically wants to know whether he can get away with being a lying cheat. That's the problem he wants Typology Central to help solve--do you want to help him? I say, 'fuck you, The Great One, fuck you and your lying and cheating ways.'

    If this isn't the problem The Great One wishes to address, if this is all just a big misunderstanding on my part, then I hope he can explain himself better next time.

    Is calling him a sociopath or hoping that his ultimate fate (death) will come sooner, going to help him at all?
    I explicitly said that I don't want to help him.

    Trying to tell him to re-examine how his lies affected others and needs to have his own morality besides hell is a valid point.
    Do you think he is ignorant of how his lies effect others? I doubt that very much. He was quite upfront about his actions, and he understands they're normally considered sins. He surely knows what it is like to be the victim of fraud and deception himself, so this is not an issue of not understanding. The Great One is just exhibiting behaviours and values associated with sociopathy. This is not to say he is a sociopath--I only ever claimed that he sounded like a sociopath.

    But is not hoping for another's death not hypocritical against your point of having moral responsibility include others?
    I was being facetious. But, in any case, it's not hypocritical. I don't think I have a moral responsibility to hope that The Great One lives a long life, especially if that's a long life of cheating and lying to people for his personal gain.

    If The Great One died in the soon to be future, would you have been happy?
    Happy? No. Uncaring? Yes. Just taking him at his word, he sounds like a parasite on society.

    As a sidenote, there is a difference between amoral and immoral.
    Yes, I choose every word I use with care. When I said 'amoral' that's what I meant.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  4. #54
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    God is love. God is good.l

    Satan is evil. The 'world' or Kosmos is evil. Humans are imperfect. The devil and humans cause the problems of the world. Not God.

    I was raised Episcopalian, became an atheist at 19. And became born again at 43. I've been in both places. There is no comparison. I know you are obsessed with eschatological issues, Great One, and what happens when you die, etc. But having God incarnate in your life daily makes you feel soo good. And makes you feel like you can conquer anything. Because God does that for you. God gives you the strength you need, and brings exactly to your life the perfect scenario for you, when you trust Him and try to live according to Jesus' word.

    You think God didn't care when you lied? Of course he did. I have seen this played out in my life. God can strike you down when you obey the Devil over Him. Heed this verse:
    ...but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." ~James 1:14-15.

    I have come to honor God's everlasting presence in my life, for numerous reasons. Do I still believe in evolution? Yes. Do I still believe in science? Sure, to a certain degree, though I know it is not the full story. There is so much about the spiritual and metaphysical world we still do not understand.


    Why God? Dougles Moo (new testament scholar) says it best: "This life cannot be properly understood without considering the spiritual realm, a realm that impinges on and ultimately determines the material realm in which we live day to day."
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    Do not resist an evil person, but to him who strikes you on the one cheek, offer also the other. ~Matthew 5:39

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  5. #55
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the debate they spawned have been split to a place where it can get the attention it deserves.

  6. #56
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    The Great One expressed himself rather clearly. His problem is whether eternal damnation awaits him in the afterlife for his sins. It's a frighteningly pragmatic concern: he basically wants to know whether he can get away with being a lying cheat. That's the problem he wants Typology Central to help solve--do you want to help him? I say, 'fuck you, The Great One, fuck you and your lying and cheating ways.'

    If this isn't the problem The Great One wishes to address, if this is all just a big misunderstanding on my part, then I hope he can explain himself better next time.

    I explicitly said that I don't want to help him.
    The last paragraph of the OP was:
    Listen members of typology central, I really have no idea what to do and no idea what to believe. I am frightened in every possible way, no matter which way I turn when it comes to religion. Has anyone else on this forum had trouble sorting out religious beliefs and if so, how did you sort them out?
    This is the question that I answered, and my answer contained more than personal anecdotes, specifically the suggestion to do reading on some specific questions related to sorting out one's beliefs.

    You certainly don't have to help TGO, and you don't even have to care. But it is wrong and counterproductive to imply that those of us who have taken an interest in his question, perhaps because we have been there ourselves, are misinterpreting his request and sharing nothing of value. It is easy enough to get clarification of the OP without all this, or simply to ignore it if you really don't care.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  7. #57
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    God is love. God is good.l

    Satan is evil. The 'world' or Kosmos is evil. Humans are imperfect. The devil and humans cause the problems of the world. Not God.

    I was raised Episcopalian, became an atheist at 19. And became born again at 43. I've been in both places. There is no comparison. I know you are obsessed with eschatological issues, Great One, and what happens when you die, etc. But having God incarnate in your life daily makes you feel soo good. And makes you feel like you can conquer anything. Because God does that for you. God gives you the strength you need, and brings exactly to your life the perfect scenario for you, when you trust Him and try to live according to Jesus' word.

    You think God didn't care when you lied? Of course he did. I have seen this played out in my life. God can strike you down when you obey the Devil over Him. Heed this verse:


    I have come to honor God's everlasting presence in my life, for numerous reasons. Do I still believe in evolution? Yes. Do I still believe in science? Sure, to a certain degree, though I know it is not the full story. There is so much about the spiritual and metaphysical world we still do not understand.


    Why God? Dougles Moo (new testament scholar) says it best: "This life cannot be properly understood without considering the spiritual realm, a realm that impinges on and ultimately determines the material realm in which we live day to day."
    Thanks Aphrodite. This is a very helpful post.

  8. #58
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Most of us don't want to grow up. We want to remain a child of God forever.

    But the facts of biology are clear - we are born as children but grow into adults by the age of about twenty-two.

    But of course most of us don't have the intellectual integrity or the moral courage to follow the natural course of biology and grow up.

  9. #59
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Even the Bible tells us that, when one becomes a man, one must put away childish things.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

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