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  1. #41
    Senior Member Nicodemus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ilikeitlikethat View Post
    I didn't even read that, I'm one of those 'reply to the title' posters, sometimes, like this thread; time.

    and on that note, I'm still hung up about my religion not wanting to have me if I do this this that, well my church but, my church speaks for my religion.

    'My religion's losing me.'
    http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...20109.abstract

  2. #42
    Senior Member reason's Avatar
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    @The Great One

    You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

    I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  3. #43
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Losing our religion is like losing our virginity - it is a step on the way to becoming a mensch.

  4. #44
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Great One View Post
    Thanks guys for all the comments. My biggest problem is that my mind is going into super Ti mode, and investigating the hell out of what really happens when I die. It's not like this Fi-style, "I want to explore how I feel about religion thing", it's more of like a "I want to really investigate what really happens when I die thing, and what makes logical sense to me". This issue pesters me day and night. In fact, many times I'm terrified to even go outside and jog for fear of being hit by a car. I feel like if I died right now, it would end poorly no matter what: I would either die and go to hell for not keeping the faith, or I would just perish forever. For that matter, even when I'm taking a shower in the morning, and the water gets too hot, visions of burning in hellfire overload my mind. It gets so bad, I am even starting to have panic attacks about this.

    I'm wondering how to solve this problem. I mean, I guess I could go to a psychologist, but I'm not really sure if they could help me because it has to do with religious issues. Also, if I do decide to keep the religion, then I think that I should really re-investigate just who God really is. I think that there are two big ways to view God, the old testament ENTJ 8w7 God, and then the 2w1 INFJ God in the New testament. I view God more as the ENTJ vengful God, and I really think that this messes me up mentally.
    Then investigate. Read about how the world's various religions approach death, afterlife, god, and whatever questions you have. I'm not saying any of them have the "right" answer; perhaps none do. This study, however, will give you the overview of how humanity has addressed these questions. You needn't agree with or adopt any perspective you see, but you might find bits and pieces that make sense to you. Also, the exposure might stimulate your own thoughts on the matter.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #45
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    OP, I was raised in a very strict religion, stayed there for years despite having lots of stifled questions and despite it doing a number on mental health, and then finally gave myself permission to realize that it wasn't working for me, and that I could leave without fear of any sort of eternal repercussions. I believe religion can be a force for good in the lives of many. It can also be an albatross around the neck of others. The intense guilt and shame, along with doomsday proclamations made to keep the faithful in line can be especially damaging to those with a propensity for depression, anxiety, OCD, perfectionism and/or scrupulosity. Those folks will generally take what they're told a lot more seriously and internalize it, creating a very frightening, overwhelming world. For me, the realization that my true belief is that no one can really know the true nature of God, or even if there is one, despite the fact that I was raised to believe that the church had all the answers, was incredibly freeing. I no longer had to frame my worldview around something that 1) never made sense to me and 2) I often disagreed with, which created painful cognitive dissonance and a negative view of human nature.

    I also agree with the poster (@coriolanus)? that said to remember that the religion you were raised in is not the only religion out there. See if there's something that fits you better, or see if no religion fits you better. But you don't have to stay in the religion you were raised in. Especially if it's causing you pain. If God exists, I don't believe he will care one bit which particular church you joined. In fact, I kind of live by the Atheist's Wager, rather than Pascal's.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikipedia -- Atheist's Wager
    You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.[1]
    That makes a lot more sense to me than fire and brimstone and finding and accepting one god over another.

    I do recommend doing some reading on why humans believe in god and religion in the first place. It helps to have a psychological perspective.
    Something Witty

  6. #46
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    I remember going to church when I was five and thinking "this can't be right".


    In my older age, particularly when I'm stoned, I've felt God may be probing my mind for genuine sentiment regarding particular things.


    You'll figure out whatever, someday.

  7. #47
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    Hell is seperation from God and that's literal enough, people can give themselves or others hell if they want.
    I agree which in my mind goes hand in hand with a/anti-sociality if God is the avatar of consciousness. However, God wears many conflicting faces so which God? And whom is being non-prosocial to whom? This is also why I view morality as about relationship webs and how actions alter them rather than defining the acts themselves as having inherent morality
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

  8. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by UniqueMixture View Post
    I agree which in my mind goes hand in hand with a/anti-sociality if God is the avatar of consciousness. However, God wears many conflicting faces so which God? And whom is being non-prosocial to whom? This is also why I view morality as about relationship webs and how actions alter them rather than defining the acts themselves as having inherent morality
    I'm unsure what you mean, I've been interested in intersubjective thinking for a short time and can see some value in it but no matter how much value I do see in it I still consider there to be an objective right and wrong and social, prosocial and antisocial. I dont consider that subjective. I do consider it simple though, with increasing complexity there is increasing subjectivity.

    So helping someone who has fallen down to their feet or refraining from hitting someone is social and prosocial but arguing about paying taxes in order that these actions may be performed by someone else is a different question.

  9. #49
    Senior Member The Great One's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicodemus View Post
    The answers to your questions are very simple, you just do not like them.

    I imagine your brother is quite annoyed with the way you go about these things.
    My brother and I hate each other's guts. My brother is an INTJ 5w6 SP/SX 5-8-3 tritype and he and I want to kill each other, most of the time. My brother has literally tried to stab me with a butcher knife at least twice.

    Quote Originally Posted by Peguy View Post
    The original presumption of the Enneagram is that each type represents a different attribute of God.
    Interesting I have never heard that theory. Can you provide some literature on that one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    If that's all it is, take Pascal's wager.. chances are it won't sit with you well, and you'll want your 'Fi' style exploration anyway.
    Why is it Fi style and not Ti style?

    Quote Originally Posted by gromit View Post
    Hey @The Great One, I was also raised pretty religious and feel like you cannot *know* what happens when you die, if there is a God really, or anything else like that. And it's almost like the harder you try, the more lost you become. Seems to me time and experience are what bring you peace, and, in a way, answers. I would say to try to embrace and embody the principles you can agree with from your upbringing and try to let the rest slide. Be gentle with yourself. Live according to truth and goodness as you understand, seek to improve yourself, and to let go of the things that are holding you back.

    That is all that anyone (including any God that is in any way GOOD) can ask.

    I think as you let things go, that you will find peace and answers, in an indirect way. A lot of things seem to come that way, not by searching for them directly, but by holding it just beyond your focus and letting it happen.

    A friend/religious leader once described a yoga principle that kind of stuck with me, but I think it applies to faith, self-improvement, many things:

    Every pose is comprised of equal parts effort and surrender.
    Thank you for actually being one of the very few, that have actually given me a helpful comment on this thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    @The Great One

    You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

    I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.
    Not gonna lie, setting moral values for myself don't come natural to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Then investigate. Read about how the world's various religions approach death, afterlife, god, and whatever questions you have. I'm not saying any of them have the "right" answer; perhaps none do. This study, however, will give you the overview of how humanity has addressed these questions. You needn't agree with or adopt any perspective you see, but you might find bits and pieces that make sense to you. Also, the exposure might stimulate your own thoughts on the matter.
    I think that's what I'm actually going to do. It doesn't look like there is any other answer.

  10. #50
    Senior Member UniqueMixture's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I'm unsure what you mean, I've been interested in intersubjective thinking for a short time and can see some value in it but no matter how much value I do see in it I still consider there to be an objective right and wrong and social, prosocial and antisocial. I dont consider that subjective. I do consider it simple though, with increasing complexity there is increasing subjectivity.

    So helping someone who has fallen down to their feet or refraining from hitting someone is social and prosocial but arguing about paying taxes in order that these actions may be performed by someone else is a different question.
    Yes, I agree. However, correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that the types of moral relationships you were most/largely concerned with were those between human agents. For me, this is a bit non-realistic because it doesn't take into account other agencies for morality both biological and "inanimate" that not only impact the relationships between human beings, but that who own "relationship web" exists in Gestalt and overlaps with that of humanity. Thus why certain foods for example are given moral properties or behaviors. They tend to lead to self-reproducing cycles of being by which life and thus "goodness" and morality are characterized. If you some reason thread on Non moral dualism these were the truck kinds of concepts I was wanting to have discussed. Namely that a persons morality is defined more by the networks of relationships that they exist in rather than by logical systems that do not correspond directly to physical relations but abstract them because of the impact of molecular processes on relationships are not being taken into account. That's why scientific studies can be so misleading. People look at individual processes and determine their value individually rather than seeing how they intertwine recursively into one another. Imo morality is almost like a Mandelbrot set of subatomic motion
    For all that we have done, as a civilization, as individuals, the universe is not stable, and nor is any single thing within it. Stars consume themselves, the universe itself rushes apart, and we ourselves are composed of matter in constant flux. Colonies of cells in temporary alliance, replicating and decaying and housed within, an incandescent cloud of electrical impulses. This is reality, this is self knowledge, and the perception of it will, of course, make you dizzy.

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