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Losing my religion

Nicodemus

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reason

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[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.
 

Mole

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Losing our religion is like losing our virginity - it is a step on the way to becoming a mensch.
 

Coriolis

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Thanks guys for all the comments. My biggest problem is that my mind is going into super Ti mode, and investigating the hell out of what really happens when I die. It's not like this Fi-style, "I want to explore how I feel about religion thing", it's more of like a "I want to really investigate what really happens when I die thing, and what makes logical sense to me". This issue pesters me day and night. In fact, many times I'm terrified to even go outside and jog for fear of being hit by a car. I feel like if I died right now, it would end poorly no matter what: I would either die and go to hell for not keeping the faith, or I would just perish forever. For that matter, even when I'm taking a shower in the morning, and the water gets too hot, visions of burning in hellfire overload my mind. It gets so bad, I am even starting to have panic attacks about this.

I'm wondering how to solve this problem. I mean, I guess I could go to a psychologist, but I'm not really sure if they could help me because it has to do with religious issues. Also, if I do decide to keep the religion, then I think that I should really re-investigate just who God really is. I think that there are two big ways to view God, the old testament ENTJ 8w7 God, and then the 2w1 INFJ God in the New testament. I view God more as the ENTJ vengful God, and I really think that this messes me up mentally.
Then investigate. Read about how the world's various religions approach death, afterlife, god, and whatever questions you have. I'm not saying any of them have the "right" answer; perhaps none do. This study, however, will give you the overview of how humanity has addressed these questions. You needn't agree with or adopt any perspective you see, but you might find bits and pieces that make sense to you. Also, the exposure might stimulate your own thoughts on the matter.
 

Tallulah

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OP, I was raised in a very strict religion, stayed there for years despite having lots of stifled questions and despite it doing a number on mental health, and then finally gave myself permission to realize that it wasn't working for me, and that I could leave without fear of any sort of eternal repercussions. I believe religion can be a force for good in the lives of many. It can also be an albatross around the neck of others. The intense guilt and shame, along with doomsday proclamations made to keep the faithful in line can be especially damaging to those with a propensity for depression, anxiety, OCD, perfectionism and/or scrupulosity. Those folks will generally take what they're told a lot more seriously and internalize it, creating a very frightening, overwhelming world. For me, the realization that my true belief is that no one can really know the true nature of God, or even if there is one, despite the fact that I was raised to believe that the church had all the answers, was incredibly freeing. I no longer had to frame my worldview around something that 1) never made sense to me and 2) I often disagreed with, which created painful cognitive dissonance and a negative view of human nature.

I also agree with the poster (@coriolanus)? that said to remember that the religion you were raised in is not the only religion out there. See if there's something that fits you better, or see if no religion fits you better. But you don't have to stay in the religion you were raised in. Especially if it's causing you pain. If God exists, I don't believe he will care one bit which particular church you joined. In fact, I kind of live by the Atheist's Wager, rather than Pascal's.

Wikipedia -- Atheist's Wager said:
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.[1]

That makes a lot more sense to me than fire and brimstone and finding and accepting one god over another.

I do recommend doing some reading on why humans believe in god and religion in the first place. It helps to have a psychological perspective.
 
W

WALMART

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I remember going to church when I was five and thinking "this can't be right".


In my older age, particularly when I'm stoned, I've felt God may be probing my mind for genuine sentiment regarding particular things.


You'll figure out whatever, someday.
 

UniqueMixture

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Hell is seperation from God and that's literal enough, people can give themselves or others hell if they want.

I agree which in my mind goes hand in hand with a/anti-sociality if God is the avatar of consciousness. However, God wears many conflicting faces so which God? And whom is being non-prosocial to whom? This is also why I view morality as about relationship webs and how actions alter them rather than defining the acts themselves as having inherent morality
 

Lark

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I agree which in my mind goes hand in hand with a/anti-sociality if God is the avatar of consciousness. However, God wears many conflicting faces so which God? And whom is being non-prosocial to whom? This is also why I view morality as about relationship webs and how actions alter them rather than defining the acts themselves as having inherent morality

I'm unsure what you mean, I've been interested in intersubjective thinking for a short time and can see some value in it but no matter how much value I do see in it I still consider there to be an objective right and wrong and social, prosocial and antisocial. I dont consider that subjective. I do consider it simple though, with increasing complexity there is increasing subjectivity.

So helping someone who has fallen down to their feet or refraining from hitting someone is social and prosocial but arguing about paying taxes in order that these actions may be performed by someone else is a different question.
 

The Great One

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The answers to your questions are very simple, you just do not like them.

I imagine your brother is quite annoyed with the way you go about these things.

My brother and I hate each other's guts. My brother is an INTJ 5w6 SP/SX 5-8-3 tritype and he and I want to kill each other, most of the time. My brother has literally tried to stab me with a butcher knife at least twice.

The original presumption of the Enneagram is that each type represents a different attribute of God.

Interesting I have never heard that theory. Can you provide some literature on that one?

If that's all it is, take Pascal's wager.. chances are it won't sit with you well, and you'll want your 'Fi' style exploration anyway.

Why is it Fi style and not Ti style?

Hey [MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION], I was also raised pretty religious and feel like you cannot *know* what happens when you die, if there is a God really, or anything else like that. And it's almost like the harder you try, the more lost you become. Seems to me time and experience are what bring you peace, and, in a way, answers. I would say to try to embrace and embody the principles you can agree with from your upbringing and try to let the rest slide. Be gentle with yourself. Live according to truth and goodness as you understand, seek to improve yourself, and to let go of the things that are holding you back.

That is all that anyone (including any God that is in any way GOOD) can ask.

I think as you let things go, that you will find peace and answers, in an indirect way. A lot of things seem to come that way, not by searching for them directly, but by holding it just beyond your focus and letting it happen.

A friend/religious leader once described a yoga principle that kind of stuck with me, but I think it applies to faith, self-improvement, many things:

Every pose is comprised of equal parts effort and surrender.

Thank you for actually being one of the very few, that have actually given me a helpful comment on this thread.

[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.

Not gonna lie, setting moral values for myself don't come natural to me.

Then investigate. Read about how the world's various religions approach death, afterlife, god, and whatever questions you have. I'm not saying any of them have the "right" answer; perhaps none do. This study, however, will give you the overview of how humanity has addressed these questions. You needn't agree with or adopt any perspective you see, but you might find bits and pieces that make sense to you. Also, the exposure might stimulate your own thoughts on the matter.

I think that's what I'm actually going to do. It doesn't look like there is any other answer.
 

UniqueMixture

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I'm unsure what you mean, I've been interested in intersubjective thinking for a short time and can see some value in it but no matter how much value I do see in it I still consider there to be an objective right and wrong and social, prosocial and antisocial. I dont consider that subjective. I do consider it simple though, with increasing complexity there is increasing subjectivity.

So helping someone who has fallen down to their feet or refraining from hitting someone is social and prosocial but arguing about paying taxes in order that these actions may be performed by someone else is a different question.

Yes, I agree. However, correct me if I am mistaken, but I was under the impression that the types of moral relationships you were most/largely concerned with were those between human agents. For me, this is a bit non-realistic because it doesn't take into account other agencies for morality both biological and "inanimate" that not only impact the relationships between human beings, but that who own "relationship web" exists in Gestalt and overlaps with that of humanity. Thus why certain foods for example are given moral properties or behaviors. They tend to lead to self-reproducing cycles of being by which life and thus "goodness" and morality are characterized. If you some reason thread on Non moral dualism these were the truck kinds of concepts I was wanting to have discussed. Namely that a persons morality is defined more by the networks of relationships that they exist in rather than by logical systems that do not correspond directly to physical relations but abstract them because of the impact of molecular processes on relationships are not being taken into account. That's why scientific studies can be so misleading. People look at individual processes and determine their value individually rather than seeing how they intertwine recursively into one another. Imo morality is almost like a Mandelbrot set of subatomic motion
 
S

Sniffles

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Interesting I have never heard that theory. Can you provide some literature on that one?
This may help:
http://www.hurleydonson.com/religious_accusations.htm

One excerpt that deals with this issue:
Pacwa disagrees that there are "nine faces of God" of which each Enneagram type is a distortion. He claims "God does not have nine faces. . . . [T]here are three coequal persons in the one God [and] these three persons are neither multiplying nor subdividing into nine faces." Pacwa apparently does not know that the source of this image of the "nine faces of God" is the mystical Hebrew teaching called the Kabbalah. The Christian perspective of which we are aware both respects its Jewish roots and respects the Jewish faith as a sister faith to Christianity. Also, the word "faces" is a metaphor for "attributes." These terms are used interchangeably in the Kabbalah. Thus, the Enneagram relies on ancient Kabbalistic tradition for saying there are nine faces of God. We will deal with Pacwa’s problem with distorting the face of God in the next point.

Elsewhere they explain how the nine types are also derived from the "nine passions" outlined by the Desert Fathers.
 

Keps Mnemnosyne

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I also agree with the poster (@coriolanus)? that said to remember that the religion you were raised in is not the only religion out there. See if there's something that fits you better, or see if no religion fits you better. But you don't have to stay in the religion you were raised in. Especially if it's causing you pain. If God exists, I don't believe he will care one bit which particular church you joined. In fact, I kind of live by the Atheist's Wager, rather than Pascal's.
You should live your life and try to make the world a better place for your being in it, whether or not you believe in god. If there is no god, you have lost nothing and will be remembered fondly by those you left behind. If there is a benevolent god, he will judge you on your merits and not just on whether or not you believed in him.


That makes a lot more sense to me than fire and brimstone and finding and accepting one god over another.

I do recommend doing some reading on why humans believe in god and religion in the first place. It helps to have a psychological perspective.
I agree with the main points of Tallulah's post. Even as an atheist turned Catholic I still live by the atheist wager although I would change the first part slightly to "If there is no god, you have lost nothing, and will know yourself throughout your life as someone trying to be a good person."
[MENTION=15607]The Great One[/MENTION]

You sound like a sociopath. Apparently, the only thing stopping you from lying to people for personal gain is fear of eternal punishment in the afterlife. You then managed to suppress those beliefs because they were an inconvenience, and even decided to become 'full-out atheist' to 'free you mind' from any lingering sense of moral responsibility. WHAT THE FUCK!? I repeat that: WHAT THE FUCK!? Eventually, the nagging thought that hell might await you after all instigates a crisis, because your ultimate fate would seem to be either eternal damnation or plain non-existence.

I could help you resolve these problems, because I've thought about them a lot and know some good solutions. However, I don't think I want to. Atheism is not an excuse to be an amoral dick. Whatever your ultimate fate, I hope you discover it sooner rather than later.
I am slightly surprised no one has asked you to at least clarify your post. I am hoping I read your post incorrectly. The Great One is asking for help, and knows he needs it. Is calling him a sociopath or hoping that his ultimate fate (death) will come sooner, going to help him at all? Trying to tell him to re-examine how his lies affected others and needs to have his own morality besides hell is a valid point. But is not hoping for another's death not hypocritical against your point of having moral responsibility include others? If The Great One died in the soon to be future, would you have been happy?

As a sidenote, there is a difference between amoral and immoral.
 

reason

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I am slightly surprised no one has asked you to at least clarify your post.
I thought I was quite clear.

I am hoping I read your post incorrectly.
Then it's no wonder you misunderstood.

The Great One is asking for help, and knows he needs it.
Yes, but help with what? What is The Great One's problem? This is important, because we can't help him unless we understand what his problem is. The majority of users so far have not addressed The Great One's problem, but have instead just shared stories about their own struggles with theology, religion, and family. That's all well and good, but it's also besides the point.

The Great One expressed himself rather clearly. His problem is whether eternal damnation awaits him in the afterlife for his sins. It's a frighteningly pragmatic concern: he basically wants to know whether he can get away with being a lying cheat. That's the problem he wants Typology Central to help solve--do you want to help him? I say, 'fuck you, The Great One, fuck you and your lying and cheating ways.'

If this isn't the problem The Great One wishes to address, if this is all just a big misunderstanding on my part, then I hope he can explain himself better next time.

Is calling him a sociopath or hoping that his ultimate fate (death) will come sooner, going to help him at all?
I explicitly said that I don't want to help him.

Trying to tell him to re-examine how his lies affected others and needs to have his own morality besides hell is a valid point.
Do you think he is ignorant of how his lies effect others? I doubt that very much. He was quite upfront about his actions, and he understands they're normally considered sins. He surely knows what it is like to be the victim of fraud and deception himself, so this is not an issue of not understanding. The Great One is just exhibiting behaviours and values associated with sociopathy. This is not to say he is a sociopath--I only ever claimed that he sounded like a sociopath.

But is not hoping for another's death not hypocritical against your point of having moral responsibility include others?
I was being facetious. But, in any case, it's not hypocritical. I don't think I have a moral responsibility to hope that The Great One lives a long life, especially if that's a long life of cheating and lying to people for his personal gain.

If The Great One died in the soon to be future, would you have been happy?
Happy? No. Uncaring? Yes. Just taking him at his word, he sounds like a parasite on society.

As a sidenote, there is a difference between amoral and immoral.
Yes, I choose every word I use with care. When I said 'amoral' that's what I meant.
 

AphroditeGoneAwry

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God is love. God is good.l

Satan is evil. The 'world' or Kosmos is evil. Humans are imperfect. The devil and humans cause the problems of the world. Not God.

I was raised Episcopalian, became an atheist at 19. And became born again at 43. I've been in both places. There is no comparison. I know you are obsessed with eschatological issues, Great One, and what happens when you die, etc. But having God incarnate in your life daily makes you feel soo good. And makes you feel like you can conquer anything. Because God does that for you. God gives you the strength you need, and brings exactly to your life the perfect scenario for you, when you trust Him and try to live according to Jesus' word.

You think God didn't care when you lied? Of course he did. I have seen this played out in my life. God can strike you down when you obey the Devil over Him. Heed this verse:
...but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death." ~James 1:14-15.


I have come to honor God's everlasting presence in my life, for numerous reasons. Do I still believe in evolution? Yes. Do I still believe in science? Sure, to a certain degree, though I know it is not the full story. There is so much about the spiritual and metaphysical world we still do not understand.


Why God? Dougles Moo (new testament scholar) says it best: "This life cannot be properly understood without considering the spiritual realm, a realm that impinges on and ultimately determines the material realm in which we live day to day."
 

Kasper

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Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the debate they spawned have been split to a place where it can get the attention it deserves.
 

Coriolis

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The Great One expressed himself rather clearly. His problem is whether eternal damnation awaits him in the afterlife for his sins. It's a frighteningly pragmatic concern: he basically wants to know whether he can get away with being a lying cheat. That's the problem he wants Typology Central to help solve--do you want to help him? I say, 'fuck you, The Great One, fuck you and your lying and cheating ways.'

If this isn't the problem The Great One wishes to address, if this is all just a big misunderstanding on my part, then I hope he can explain himself better next time.

I explicitly said that I don't want to help him.
The last paragraph of the OP was:
Listen members of typology central, I really have no idea what to do and no idea what to believe. I am frightened in every possible way, no matter which way I turn when it comes to religion. Has anyone else on this forum had trouble sorting out religious beliefs and if so, how did you sort them out?
This is the question that I answered, and my answer contained more than personal anecdotes, specifically the suggestion to do reading on some specific questions related to sorting out one's beliefs.

You certainly don't have to help TGO, and you don't even have to care. But it is wrong and counterproductive to imply that those of us who have taken an interest in his question, perhaps because we have been there ourselves, are misinterpreting his request and sharing nothing of value. It is easy enough to get clarification of the OP without all this, or simply to ignore it if you really don't care.
 

The Great One

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God is love. God is good.l

Satan is evil. The 'world' or Kosmos is evil. Humans are imperfect. The devil and humans cause the problems of the world. Not God.

I was raised Episcopalian, became an atheist at 19. And became born again at 43. I've been in both places. There is no comparison. I know you are obsessed with eschatological issues, Great One, and what happens when you die, etc. But having God incarnate in your life daily makes you feel soo good. And makes you feel like you can conquer anything. Because God does that for you. God gives you the strength you need, and brings exactly to your life the perfect scenario for you, when you trust Him and try to live according to Jesus' word.

You think God didn't care when you lied? Of course he did. I have seen this played out in my life. God can strike you down when you obey the Devil over Him. Heed this verse:


I have come to honor God's everlasting presence in my life, for numerous reasons. Do I still believe in evolution? Yes. Do I still believe in science? Sure, to a certain degree, though I know it is not the full story. There is so much about the spiritual and metaphysical world we still do not understand.


Why God? Dougles Moo (new testament scholar) says it best: "This life cannot be properly understood without considering the spiritual realm, a realm that impinges on and ultimately determines the material realm in which we live day to day."

Thanks Aphrodite. This is a very helpful post.
 

Mole

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Most of us don't want to grow up. We want to remain a child of God forever.

But the facts of biology are clear - we are born as children but grow into adults by the age of about twenty-two.

But of course most of us don't have the intellectual integrity or the moral courage to follow the natural course of biology and grow up.
 

Coriolis

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Even the Bible tells us that, when one becomes a man, one must put away childish things.
 
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