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  1. #61
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    An objectivist Christian?

    Seriously? I struggle to think to two more incompatible creedos.
    Pretty much. Unless he throws out almost everything that makes objectivism, objectivism.

    I've read some of d'nesh d'sousa's stuff before, never knew he considered himself an objectivist. His attempts to "prove" God did seem a bit foolish, but this makes me respect him even less.
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  2. #62
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    How can something as irrational as God, be explained by rational means? It cannot.

    That is why one needs open-mindedness and faith to bridge the gap between observable and intuited reality.

    Putting all their eggs in science's basket limits those who must have proof to believe. And we *know* science is not the whole story.

    Atheism is just dried up hope. Waiting for Holy water to reawaken it.
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  3. #63
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Pretty much. Unless he throws out almost everything that makes objectivism, objectivism.

    I've read some of d'nesh d'sousa's stuff before, never knew he considered himself an objectivist. His attempts to "prove" God did seem a bit foolish, but this makes me respect him even less.
    I just know that Rand and most objectivists think about as much of Jesus Christ as they do Karl Marx, infact the logic of self-sacrifice involved in Jesus, whether you believe in any supernatural order and God or not, is pretty much perfectly anathema to Objectivism.

    Its seriously a much harder pair off to justify than liberation theology's marxist materialism and christian spirituality.

  4. #64
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    How can something as irrational as God, be explained by rational means? It cannot.

    That is why one needs open-mindedness and faith to bridge the gap between observable and intuited reality.

    Putting all their eggs in science's basket limits those who must have proof to believe. And we *know* science is not the whole story.

    Atheism is just dried up hope. Waiting for Holy water to reawaken it.
    I think reason can provide proofs of God but the God that remains is pretty different from that in any of the world religions, deism did it at the time of the french revolution but it never grew into a mass movement or sustained itself.

  5. #65
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    I just know that Rand and most objectivists think about as much of Jesus Christ as they do Karl Marx, infact the logic of self-sacrifice involved in Jesus, whether you believe in any supernatural order and God or not, is pretty much perfectly anathema to Objectivism.

    Its seriously a much harder pair off to justify than liberation theology's marxist materialism and christian spirituality.
    You're absolutely right. I'm not a fan of objectivist philosophy, at all. (Maybe a little ironic, me being a fairly vocal libertarian, but I don't care. Objectivism may depend on selfish libertarian politics, but libertarianism in no way depends on objectivism.)

    Speaking of liberation theology, I agree on that too. It doesn't so much violate Christian theology as it does focus on the wrong issues. The world cannot be perfected without God Himself, and social "equality" will not solve all our problems.
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  6. #66
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Dinesh D'Souza's essay "covered the long history of Objectivists reaching conclusions at odds with reality."
    I'm not saying what those conclusions are, only that Objectivists are prone to historical revisionism. Read the intro to "For The New Intellectual" for proof of that. And that's only the beginning. D'Souza rejects everything about Objectivism.

    This, and the fact that he is a Christian, means that D'Souza is not an Objectivist at all, he is a faith-oriented conservative in the American sense.
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  7. #67
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Dinesh D'Souza's essay "covered the long history of Objectivists reaching conclusions at odds with reality."
    I'm not saying what those conclusions are, only that Objectivists are prone to historical revisionism. Read the intro to "For The New Intellectual" for proof that. And that's only the beginning. D'Souza rejects everything about Objectivism.

    This, and the fact that he is a Christian, means that D'Souza is not an Objectivist at all, he is a faith-oriented conservative in the American sense.
    Okay. I'm guessing you didn't mean to use the philosophical definition of the word then. In that case, I still don't much care for him because he uses superficial, low-level, easily-countered arguments, but at least he's not inconsistent.
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  8. #68
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    Okay. I'm guessing you didn't mean to use the philosophical definition of the word then. In that case, I still don't much care for him because he uses superficial, low-level, easily-countered arguments, but at least he's not inconsistent.
    Can you agree with his statement that the Spanish Inquisition killed far fewer people than modern Marxist states? It's kind of hard not to. What does that lead you to conclude? That if someone wants to draw comparisons in order to make Christianity look bad, then at least the Christian has some statistics to strike back with. But he's only making this argument because of atheists who draw such comparisons.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  9. #69
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Can you agree with his statement that the Spanish Inquisition killed far fewer people than modern Marxist states? It's kind of hard not to. What does that lead you to conclude? That if someone wants to draw comparisons in order to make Christianity look bad, then at least the Christian has some statistics to strike back with. But he's only making this argument because of atheists who draw such comparisons.
    But being culturally beneficial still says nothing on whether Christianity is actually true, and the God of the Bible is real. Personally, I'd rather have a harsh truth than a pleasant lie. I don't believe the God of Christianity is a lie; He is the ultimate truth. But I believe that based on my own experiences and reasoning, not because it's a nice, lovely thing to believe and that we should all believe nice, lovely things.
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  10. #70
    Senior Member Survive & Stay Free's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by freeeekyyy View Post
    You're absolutely right. I'm not a fan of objectivist philosophy, at all. (Maybe a little ironic, me being a fairly vocal libertarian, but I don't care. Objectivism may depend on selfish libertarian politics, but libertarianism in no way depends on objectivism.)

    Speaking of liberation theology, I agree on that too. It doesn't so much violate Christian theology as it does focus on the wrong issues. The world cannot be perfected without God Himself, and social "equality" will not solve all our problems.
    The only feasible libertarianism, and I hesitate to call it that as it is something more like minarchy which I know not all libertarians are in favour of, requires non-governmental actors to fufil many of the roles government presently does which are non-market or corrective of market failures, objectivism is contra most of these roles altogether because they can involve altruism or social conscience or something other than narrow selfish interests.

    There is also a working out of objectivism, taking it to its logical conclusion, in which it reaches socialist conclusions, now it could be something which people unfamiliar with socialism in any but a prejorative way or from second hand (usually capitalist) sources wouldnt recognise but its socialist none the less. Its in authors such as Oscar Wilde's Soul of Man Under Socialism. It also features in Dorian Gray but its a philosophy which that tag. Wilde believed that everyone operating out of purely enlightened self-interest socialism was the only feasible system. So did Edward Bellamy, although his corporatist, modernist vision doesnt appeal to many socialists now and even in its day movitated counter ideas like William Morris' News From Nowhere.

    I dont believe that socialism is perfectionist, neither is marxism, capitalist ideas are more perfectionist as they actually hinge on ideas about approximations of perfection in competition, consumer and producer information etc.

    The contradictions between Marx and Christian spirituality remain because Marx was an atheist, I think its less of a contradiction because I personally believe liberation theology with certain provisions or caveats, usually the same I'd apply to socialism, certainly less of a contradiction than objectivist-christianity.

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