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  1. #51
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    No more than to accept atheism would close their mind to the possibility that God exists.

    We accept things all of the time while also acknowledging that we may be mistaken, and that we might discover such errors through rational discussion and investigation. This is practically what it means to be rational--not perpetually withholding judgement, but judging without committing oneself come what may.
    The problem is that reason does not exist in a vacuum, so it does matter what you judge and when.

    At the same time though, I don't see the point if action or consequences don't follow.

  2. #52
    Senior Member Wolfie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    No more than to accept atheism would close their mind to the possibility that God exists.

    We accept things all of the time while also acknowledging that we may be mistaken, and that we might discover such errors through rational discussion and investigation. This is practically what it means to be rational--not perpetually withholding judgement, but judging without committing oneself come what may.
    He may have been referring to the people who don't do what you just described.
    ( . )( . )

  3. #53
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    He may have been referring to the people who don't do what you just described.
    A lot of people don't do that.

    How often do you go back to examine something that you just accept to be true?

    People usually do this very seldom. People do not constantly relearn things and reanalyze things that they are already sure of. Often times in practical scenarios, people only reconsider when things have gone wrong, and at that point they not only have to retract one point but also the whole house of cards that they subsequently built upon it.

  4. #54
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I already did. If you're claiming to know something that cannot be demonstrated to me, and others claim to share this knowledge and have their own internal practices and inner language (and idioms and buzzwords and an entire culture) then I say it fits the definition.
    That's stretching the definition quite a bit. Esoterica refers to the hidden belief structure of a religious organization such as the Mormon church or Scientology. Exoterica consists of those beliefs willingly released to public view.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes that's fine. I'm just looking for consistent reasoning.
    If you're looking for it in that atheist call-in show video, good luck!
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  5. #55
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    Well, I would think so. According to the video I just viewed previously to this one, D'Souza has three hypothetical explanations for modern blacks, and dismisses two of them: genetics, and victimhood. He then pins the blame on black culture itself. He states that victimhood is a worn out theme that leads blacks to find their salvation in the federal government (the march on Washington, for example). This sort of thing has been going on for, how long?, almost 40 years. And no social progress has been made, only regress. Pro-black legislation has done nothing but create an excuse for more victimhood. Socialism requires victims in order to survive, so it works out for both sides. The idea of social progress is a myth used to sustain the system. But nobody who wants the government hand-outs to continue can possibly be in favor of progress without engaging in a deeply rooted contradiction, because it's so obvious that social progress requires the inevitable end of hand-outs.

    If the conservatives are not using victimhood to get continued government hand-outs, and thus sustain a system based on the myth of social progress made impossible by those same hand-outs because they encourage more victimhood, more hand-outs, and more single-parent black families, then one must ask about the conservatives' goals in pursuing their own victimhood.
    The question is, why is he (and some others) so focused on blacks?
    I think it's scapegoating, and also a bit exaggerated. Like blacks on welfare are getting all the money.
    All of the waste and excess that goes to corporatism; that doesn't matter; they deserve that and more, and taking from them to give to these false-“victim” blacks is what's ruining everything.

    So yes, victimization is used to point the blame somewhere, so that more breaks (including, yes, handouts--corporate welfare, overboard deregulation, etc) could be given to the powerful, who are seen as “deserving” it.
    Oh yes indeed, he believes that the culture which "delivers the goods," not the hand-outs, has the superior system. But you should ask whether or not deconstructing the man himself truly reveals his alleged motives. Or if he is just reaping the benefits of the American melting-pot and wishes to spread his good fortune to others.
    So it works for him; therefore it's superior, and if it's not working for others, there must be something wrong with them, whether “cultural” or “genetic” (and conservatives of this ilk even tried that latter one again not too long ago, don't forget! Either way still betrays a caste mentality, as the “problem people” are obviously seen as inferior by one of those criteria or the other).

    He wasn't even here to see or experience (as he would have, as dark as he is) the full dynamic of racial oppression and its lasting effects, yet he comes here and continuously judges these people he apparently has had no other dealings with.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    The question is, why is he (and some others) so focused on blacks?
    I think it's scapegoateng, and also a bit exaggerated. Like blacks on welfare are getting all the money.
    All of the waste and excess that goes to corporatism; that doesn't matter; they deserve that and more, and taking from them to give to these false-“victim” blacks is what's ruining everything.

    So yes, victimization is used to point the blame somewhere, so that more breaks (including, yes, handouts--corporate welfare, overboard deregulation) cold be given to the powerful, who are seen as “deserving” it.
    If only that was D'Souza's stated thesis, and not just the conclusion you've drawn about him. But I haven't seen any evidence of corporate welfarism, and if he has any kind of libertarian/objectivist blood in him, like you said, then he will be fervently against the idea of welfare toward anybody, wealthy, poor, or in between.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    So it works for him; therefore it's superior, and if it's not working for others, there must be something wrong with them, whether “cultural” or “genetic” (and conservatives of this ilk even tried that one again not too long ago, don't forget! Either way still betrays a caste mentality, as the “problem people” are obviously seen as inferior by one of those criteria or the other).

    He wasn't even here to see or experience (as he would have, as dark as he is) the full dynamic of racial oppression and its lasting effects, yet he comes here and continuously judges these people he apparently has had no other dealings with.
    The problem isn't the people, according to D'Souza, it's the culture.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #57
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    If only that was D'Souza's stated thesis, and not just the conclusion you've drawn about him. But I haven't seen any evidence of corporate welfarism, and if he has any kind of libertarian/objectivist blood in him, like you said, then he will be fervently against the idea of welfare toward anybody, wealthy, poor, or in between.
    Some non-neocons (including true "Libertarians") are consistent in that, but many conservatives are so busy pointing at "social programs" for the supposedly "undeserving"; they refuse to even acknowledge the existence of corporate welfare as such. To them, it's "rewarding the productive".

    The problem isn't the people, according to D'Souza, it's the culture.
    Which is just another way of saying the people. The people make up the culture.
    Meanwhile, conservatives like this blame the problems of their "culture" on others (including this "culture" we're talking about, now).
    All cultures have problems, and while there may be a lot of people floundering who could do better for themselves, still, this guy seems to be spending too much time on this one group. It was enough when writing the book tn the subject of racism, but if he's still making comments like the cab statement about them at every turn (where it's that readily citeable), then he seems to be a bit overly fixated, if you ask me.
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  8. #58
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eric B View Post
    Some non-neocons (including true "Libertarians") are consistent in that, but many conservatives are so busy pointing at "social programs" for the supposedly "undeserving"; they refuse to even acknowledge the existence of corporate welfare as such. To them, it's "rewarding the productive".

    Which is just another way of saying the people. The people make up the culture.
    Meanwhile, conservatives like this blame the problems of their "culture" on others (including this "culture" we're talking about, now).
    All cultures have problems, and while there may be a lot of people floundering who could do better for themselves, still, this guy seems to be spending too much time on this one group. It was enough when writing the book tn the subject of racism, but if he's still making comments like the cab statement about them at every turn (where it's that readily citeable), then he seems to be a bit overly fixated, if you ask me.
    I can't say if he's fixated on blacks because I've only seen 3 of his videos and read none of his books. But so far he seems more interested in defending Christian ideals. You're fixated on politics because in one post you turned this topic away from atheism and toward some social issue. According to an interesting meme I've seen around lately, that makes you a political Genius.
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  9. #59
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Sorry about that, but as I've said, the issues become intertwined, which IMO, is harmful for the "Christian" cause, because it's not about any superior culture or economic system. According to its central message, all cultures and human systems are "fallen".
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  10. #60
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    Couldn't get past 4:58 on the video. As soon as someone sets themselves up to defend their viewpoint what is sure to follow is a rejection of the alternate viewpoint. If you are so convinced you are right, why the need to prove any opposing thought wrong? Why not just live your life smug in the knowledge you've got it all figured out and off to heaven you go? I suspect the penchant for evangelism is because no-ones really convinced by the stories that christianity's based on so they constantly shore up their belief by evangelising others.

    The whole characterisation of aetheists in the first few minutes sounded a lot like any characterisation of 'evil' by the christian church...aka, its sexy, looks cool, popular and smart peole do it...must be evil. Watch out! You're being seduced.

    As far as I'm concerned you dont need to make alternate viewpoints wrong in order to subscribe to yours. I might believe in the existence of magic for example but I dont need to prove magic exists to anyone else in order to believe it. Furthermore it causes me no detriment if I believe magic exists and 50 other people don't. If someone wants to believe in the christ go for it. I can believe in magic and you can believe in christ and the world will not implode as a result.

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