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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That depends on what kind of atheist one is. I for example do not believe, but I'm not going to go so far as to say that I'm right.
    So you don't think that atheism is true but you believe it anyway? Is it not possible to claim that you're right without committing yourself to atheism come what may?

    I say I have no reason to believe but I wouldn't dare do something such as predict that this will never ever happen.
    It's not about what you predict, but what atheism predicts. You are not atheism. Atheism is a proposition with definite logical consequences. When those consequences constrain the content of empirical observation, we call them 'predictions'.

    I think these are some overarching generalizations that are irrelevant.
    I don't think they're irrelevant.

    Also, at what point does she say this? I missed it. Can you give me the time when she explicitly says this?
    Right at the beginning. Maybe she misspoke, but it would be far from the first time I've heard atheists make such claims. Many subsequent comments appeared to lean on the same assumption. [EDIT: watching it again, the guy more or less says the same thing right off the bat].

    So then you agree? Bald guy challenges the caller directly: "How do you know that the truth value is unobtainable?"
    I agree, but the atheist is being inconsistent.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  2. #42
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    So you don't think that atheism is true but you believe it anyway? Is it not possible to claim that you're right without committing yourself to atheism come what may?
    It's possible but I'm not going to do it. Easy enough answer.

    It's not about what you predict, but what atheism predicts. You are not atheism. Atheism is a proposition with definite logical consequences. When those consequences constrain the content of empirical observation, we call them 'predictions'.
    I posit that it is not one proposition, but many.

    I don't think they're irrelevant.
    I do, because atheists do not have only one proposition.

    Right at the beginning. Maybe she misspoke, but it would be far from the first time I've heard atheists make such claims. Many subsequent comments appeared to lean on the same assumption.
    I'll have to look for it.

    I agree, but the atheist is being inconsistent.
    In the video? Probably, somewhere.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Right at the beginning. Maybe she misspoke, but it would be far from the first time I've heard atheists make such claims. Many subsequent comments appeared to lean on the same assumption. [EDIT: watching it again, the guy more or less says the same thing right off the bat].
    I hear what you're talking about now.

    Yes that is a logical slip, I completely agree. I failed to catch it since I'm generally not that detail oriented.

    At least we're on the same page regarding that, now.

  4. #44
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    Okay, it's late, and I don't want to listen to the whole thing now, so here are a few choice selections from the first few minutes.

    Bald Guy to Caller: 'Do you have any good reason why you would believe anything that is unfalsifiable?'

    Caller: 'I do care about the truth of [whether God exists], but it's unfalsifiable to me--I can't demonstrate it.'

    Bald Guy: 'it makes sense, in the sense that I've heard other people say this before, and it doesn't make sense in that I have a really hard time grasping how anybody can both understand that they believe something but they don't have a good reason for and actually still believe it.'

    Notice how the bald guy casually equates 'unfalsifiable' with having no 'good reason' to believe something. In this case, a 'good reason' is tacitly assumed to be an empirical observation (or possibly a logical proof, but that isn't relevant to the discussion). It's also worth noting that it's paradoxical to demand a good reason for everything anyone believes. In any case, we also get this priceless line:

    Lady: 'I just wanted to say that accepting unfalsifiable things as true is not reasonable--so that's my only point.'

    I'll also add this one to the file:

    Bald Guy: 'By accepting a proposition which you don't know to be true, you are limiting you're limiting your options on your ability to discover what is actually true.'

    This is so false it makes my teeth itch.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  5. #45
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Okay, it's late, and I don't want to listen to the whole thing now, so here are a few choice selections from the first few minutes.

    Bald Guy to Caller: 'Do you have any good reason why you would believe anything that is unfalsifiable?'

    Caller: 'I do care about the truth of [whether God exists], but it's unfalsifiable to me--I can't demonstrate it.'

    Bald Guy: 'it makes sense, in the sense that I've heard other people say this before, and it doesn't make sense in that I have a really hard time grasping how anybody can both understand that they believe something but they don't have a good reason for and actually still believe it.'

    Notice how the bald guy casually equates 'unfalsifiable' with having no 'good reason' to believe something. In this case, a 'good reason' is tacitly assumed to be an empirical observation (or possibly a logical proof, but that isn't relevant to the discussion). It's also worth noting that it's paradoxical to demand a good reason for everything anyone believes. In any case, we also get this priceless line:

    Lady: 'I just wanted to say that accepting unfalsifiable things as true is not reasonable--so that's my only point.'

    I'll also add this one to the file:

    Bald Guy: 'By accepting a proposition which you don't know to be true, you are limiting you're limiting your options on your ability to discover what is actually true.'
    This is so false it makes my teeth itch.
    Yes, I agree this stuff is poor.

    I'm also pretty sure that these are mistakes and they don't actually intend to say these things so literally. It is a live show after all and they are doing this stuff off the top of their head.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    I posit that it is not one proposition, but many.
    Every proposition is many propositions. In fact, every proposition has infinitely many implications. However, logically, a proposition is semantically equivalent to its consequence class, i.e. its infinite implications. In other words, atheism, as a proposition, is equivalent to an infinite set of many propositions that are entailed by it, and that includes all its predictions. In other words, the predictions are just part of what atheism means, and they cannot be subtracted from it.

    You're just making ad hoc twists and turns to avoid confronting your error.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post

    Bald Guy: 'By accepting a proposition which you don't know to be true, you are limiting you're limiting your options on your ability to discover what is actually true.'
    So if someone were to accept that there is a God, that wouldn't close their minds to other possible theories?
    ( . )( . )

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by reason View Post
    Every proposition is many propositions. In fact, every proposition has infinitely many implications. However, logically, a proposition is semantically equivalent to its consequence class, i.e. its infinite implications. In other words, atheism, as a proposition, is equivalent to an infinite set of many propositions that are entailed by it, and that includes all its predictions.

    You're just making ad hoc twists and turns to avoid confronting your error.
    That's not what I meant.

    What I meant is that different people who call themselves atheists form their proposition differently (and some don't even make one from the start) so this cannot go anywhere unless we are both on the same page on the specific definition of atheism that we are using.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfie View Post
    So if someone were to accept that there is a God, that wouldn't close their minds to other possible theories?
    No more than to accept atheism would close their mind to the possibility that God exists.

    We accept things all of the time while also acknowledging that we may be mistaken, and that we might discover such errors through rational discussion and investigation. This is practically what it means to be rational--not perpetually withholding judgement, but judging without committing oneself come what may.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That's not what I meant.

    What I meant is that different people who call themselves atheists form their proposition differently (and some don't even make one from the start) so this cannot go anywhere unless we are both on the same page on the specific definition of atheism that we are using.
    My definition of atheism: the position that no gods exist. That's all. Everything I've said about atheism has been about this and nothing more.
    A criticism that can be brought against everything ought not to be brought against anything.

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