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Phi

Salomé

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"We" meaning "I." Happy? I wasn't trying to say otherwise. I said something, "or maybe not," which is neither a "correction" nor "wrong," since what I said was Pv~P and ~(Pv~P) is illogical. You were the one who misinterpreted.

Keep telling yourself that.

I'm glad you find it hilarious. Maybe now we can get back to the topic. It's a shame, I was quite enjoying our discussion until you decided to take it personally.
I misinterpreted nothing. Nor did I take anything personally.

We were not having a discussion. I posted perhaps the best known example of "Beautiful Chaos". An image which has poetically been described as "the thumbprint of God". You told me it was not chaotic (because you were ignorant of the branch of mathematics that deals with complex dynamical systems).
That irked me because it required me to further engage with you for the purpose of correcting your error/misunderstanding (which almost always entails the sensation of banging one's head against a brick wall).

Hope that clears things up.
 
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Fluffywolf

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Aside the fact that Phi is beauty of symmetry. In structures it leads to logically sound designs and in paintings it means that there is no deadzones on the canvas and allows the entire painting to be perceived.

People see such symbolism in Phi that it astonishes me really. Like there is something really special about it. But there isn't. It's all so simple.

Did the egyptians build the pyramids using Phi because of beauty? Nah, they built it like that because it was built to last and it doesn't require much depth of thinking to know a perfect pyramid will be much much stronger than one that isn't.


People are idealistic airheads.
 

Burger King

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Idealists just love to read more into everything than is actually there.

In Art, it's charming. In Science, it's alarming.

You would know all about that wouldn't you, you being an e6 after all. Ironically, I think you share the same enneatype as the OP.
 

Fluffywolf

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Idealists just love to read more into everything than is actually there.

In Art, it's charming. In Science, it's alarming.

Coincidentally, I've watched a show about the golden ratio the other day and it was so hilarious.

Just one quote from the show that summerizes it all quite nicely:

"The golden number appears to be a constant in the universe."

And it gets much worse than that. But the fact they worship the golden number as some kind of existing deity is quite fun to watch.

For all you golden ratio lovers it might be worth watching though, others might have a laugh if they can muster up the time. Here's a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-20Cs7ewog
 

Salomé

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You would know all about that wouldn't you, you being an e6 after all. Ironically, I think you share the same enneatype as the OP.

Stick to Norse mythology. You suck at typology.
 

Fluffywolf

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From my limited understanding of norse mythology, I believe the real Loki sucked at that as well, so the correlation seems fitting. :p
 

greenfairy

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Yeah it's really interesting.

Consider a tower built by placing small wooden blocks on top of each other. It seems orderly but the taller you build it, the more wobbly it gets because the forces on it and the small errors are cumulative the more you add to it. For each block that you add there's a likelihood that it will be slightly not square, or you've placed it imperceptibly off center, or it is ever so slightly heavier on one side. These all add up until it inevitably falls over.
So that's how (seeming) order turns into (seeming) chaos. The flow of the yin yang.
 

greenfairy

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I misinterpreted nothing. Nor did I take anything personally.

We were not having a discussion. I posted perhaps the best known example of "Beautiful Chaos". An image which has poetically been described as "the thumbprint of God". You told me it was not chaotic (because you were ignorant of the branch of mathematics that deals with complex dynamical systems).
That irked me because it required me to further engage with you for the purpose of correcting your error/misunderstanding (which almost always entails the sensation of banging one's head against a brick wall).

Hope that clears things up.

You did, because I was not "telling" you anything, I was simply thinking out loud and then pointing out how my thoughts could be mistaken. You took that as a correction, which it wasn't. It wasn't directed at you- i.e. you took it personally. I have a better understanding of things now, but you could have given the information without accusing me of correcting you and then proceeding to correct me.
 

Salomé

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Meh. Whatever. Bored now.

You really fucked up your own thread.
 

greenfairy

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Aside the fact that Phi is beauty of symmetry. In structures it leads to logically sound designs and in paintings it means that there is no deadzones on the canvas and allows the entire painting to be perceived.

People see such symbolism in Phi that it astonishes me really. Like there is something really special about it. But there isn't. It's all so simple.

Did the egyptians build the pyramids using Phi because of beauty? Nah, they built it like that because it was built to last and it doesn't require much depth of thinking to know a perfect pyramid will be much much stronger than one that isn't.


People are idealistic airheads.

I don't think it's a question of idealism. The structure of the Golden Ratio is that the whole is to the larger as the larger is to the smaller. The fact that this ratio is found in many places in nature means that larger and smaller things are often mirrors of each other. This is an underlying concept in the patterns of reality. Macrocosm and microcosm have similarities along principles. One can apply this to ideas too, that the big picture is to the general is to the general as the general is to the specific, vaguely speaking. Like typology, which is symbology in ideas, we can apply general ideas to specific ones because there are patterns of organization.

As far as Phi is concerned, I guess you don't understand how to use symbology. It's nothing to do with idealism either, and everything to do with illustrations of patterns.

From my limited understanding of norse mythology, I believe the real Loki sucked at that as well, so the correlation seems fitting. :p
I don't think typology existed back then...I'm confused.

You would know all about that wouldn't you, you being an e6 after all. Ironically, I think you share the same enneatype as the OP.

:rotfl:

Well, I don't know my etype, and I don't care, so I can't say whether you're wrong. I don't really believe in it.
 

greenfairy

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Coincidentally, I've watched a show about the golden ratio the other day and it was so hilarious.

Just one quote from the show that summerizes it all quite nicely:

"The golden number appears to be a constant in the universe."

And it gets much worse than that. But the fact they worship the golden number as some kind of existing deity is quite fun to watch.

For all you golden ratio lovers it might be worth watching though, others might have a laugh if they can muster up the time. Here's a link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-20Cs7ewog

Just because some people take things too far, which happens with everything, doesn't mean there isn't some underlying part of it which is actually true and useful. If you avoid everything that idealists could run away with, you miss out on a lot in life.

Personally, I think the idea that we already know the nature of things with science, and there's nothing mysterious which is beyond our comprehension is extremely idealistic. You rationalists tend to idealize rationalism and science. Back in the days before technology and laboratories, how do you think people learned things? Largely through examination of patterns and symbols.

INTP's are supposed to like quantum physics, which is based on little more than speculative guessing based on patterns and ideas. It doesn't have much more grounding than symbology, except that symbology is useful because it's applied to practical things and real life.
 

Fluffywolf

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Back in the days before technology and laboratories, how do you think people learned things? Largely through examination of patterns and symbols.

And look what that has done for us. One race, one species, globally fractured, forming tribalism and fighting wars from ancient times up to this day. Yeah, we learned much from symbolism, like we learned to hate without reason(Unless you believe in symbolism that is, then there is reason.). Our species is poetic justice in the making. :D

INTP's are supposed to like quantum physics, which is based on little more than speculative guessing based on patterns and ideas. It doesn't have much more grounding than symbology, except that symbology is useful because it's applied to practical things and real life.

I'll leave it at my previous comment, I think it applies here as well. ;)
 

Fluffywolf

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I'll add this.

Just because something that is logical is also considered subjectively beautiful, doesn't make it special.
 

sprinkles

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I'll add this.

Just because something that is logical is also considered subjectively beautiful, doesn't make it special.

If you think about it, nothing is special.

If you don't think about it then everything is special.

Either way 'special' is manufactured and doesn't exist without somebody to appreciate it.
 

Fluffywolf

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If you think about it, nothing is special.

If you don't think about it then everything is special.

Either way 'special' is manufactured and doesn't exist without somebody to appreciate it.

I disagree, there are plenty of special things that fully deserve the brand without question, more often than not if there is mystery involved (For example, how life came to be). The golden ratio is just not one of those things. And it is not just because I subjectively believe it not to be. It is because there really is no mystery when it comes to the golden ratio. One plus one is two is nothing special either for the same reason.
 

greenfairy

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If you think about it, nothing is special.

If you don't think about it then everything is special.

Either way 'special' is manufactured and doesn't exist without somebody to appreciate it.
Right.
I disagree, there are plenty of special things that fully deserve the brand without question, more often than not if there is mystery involved (For example, how life came to be). The golden ratio is just not one of those things. And it is not just because I subjectively believe it not to be. It is because there really is no mystery when it comes to the golden ratio. One plus one is two is nothing special either for the same reason.

The mystery is the pattern, and how many things it can apply to, and in what ways. You have to think outside the box. For example, the Fibonacci sequence is in human DNA; patterns can be used as codes to discover more things. The periodic table of the elements contains all kinds of patterns, and they all mean something. The same could be true of the DNA strand. Maybe the sequence could be connected to energy patterns and vibrations, and we could use that for healing.

And look what that has done for us. One race, one species, globally fractured, forming tribalism and fighting wars from ancient times up to this day. Yeah, we learned much from symbolism, like we learned to hate without reason(Unless you believe in symbolism that is, then there is reason.). Our species is poetic justice in the making. :D



I'll leave it at my previous comment, I think it applies here as well. ;)

Ability to know truth is constant throughout time. Time is an illusion and is not linear. Knowledge and consciousness are not linear, but cyclical. History had its problems, but we have the same problems now as we did then. Plus many more.
 

sprinkles

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I disagree, there are plenty of special things that fully deserve the brand without question, more often than not if there is mystery involved (For example, how life came to be). The golden ratio is just not one of those things. And it is not just because I subjectively believe it not to be. It is because there really is no mystery when it comes to the golden ratio. One plus one is two is nothing special either for the same reason.

Says you. You can't prove special because it comes from a feeling.

It IS because you subjectively believe it to be since there's nothing objective about it. I could say that 1+1 is special and you can disagree all you want and it doesn't matter because you think what you think and I think what I think.

It really means nothing though, and this is kind of pointless to discuss.
 

Fluffywolf

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greenfairy said:
The mystery is the pattern, and how many things it can apply to, and in what ways. You have to think outside the box. For example, the Fibonacci sequence is in human DNA; patterns can be used as codes to discover more things. The periodic table of the elements contains all kinds of patterns, and they all mean something. The same could be true of the DNA strand. Maybe the sequence could be connected to energy patterns and vibrations, and we could use that for healing.

That is science, science goes by rules and principles, rules ans principles form patterns. But you lost me at energy patterns.

You seem like a harmless and nice person, as are your ideologies. But honestly the way you formulate ideas scares me. Where do you draw the line, where does the symbolism stop and reality kick in. Would you ever conform to symbolism regardless if it victimizes other people, or only conform to it if it is convenient?
 

Fluffywolf

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Cant seem to delete double posts on my phone.
 
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