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Woman and man's highest calling- Cherokee proverb

Pseudo

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And I'm supposed to determine my type how else?


I don't really understand this, but to the extent that I do I don't agree. Possible though. I don't see where I've been using Fi. You're welcome to point it out, but I'd prefer if you did it on the thread I started for analyzing my type. Lots of sarcasm and absurdity though.

Funny, I thought the tribal mentality, which I tend to embrace, is very Fe.


Maybe so. Interesting point.


Ok, but my self-actualization isn't relevant to the thread either. Or my internal delusion, except to the extent that it affects my statements, which it doesn't as they don't depend on me being a certain type. I'd almost suspect at this point that you are trying to employ Fe rather than Te, as you are focused on me (the human element) rather than my specific ideas (objective facts or not).

So that's your counter-argument?

It could just as easily be Ne (patterns)-Ti (application)-Si (experience)-Fe (social application). Could it not?


No, embracing the gender binary isn't for everyone. But if you have a gender and you are in a relationship with another gendered person, you will each have individual gender associated differences, which will ideally be in balance with each other. So if you see this as a gender binary, you are participating in it whether you believe in it or not. If you choose to believe it's something else, then your argument is irrelevant.

What would you say are gender differences beyond physical differences? Are those evident throughout all members of each gender?
 

Salomé

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Ok you're right, I should have phrased this better. I mean people have individual strengths and weaknesses, and even just taking into account the strengths, being different it's best for people to complement each other as [MENTION=16071]sprinkles[/MENTION] suggested. Yes, people need to have balance within themselves first. But individual differences exist and are a good thing, and those differences work best in balance. Two balanced individuals in balance with each other is a good thing. Gender has associated differences, which are a good thing; they tend to fit the pattern of yin-yang, and are somewhat correlated with biological sex.
Um..who says it's "best"? There are a million and one ways to self-actualise, some of them don't even require a partner!

The reason you're pissing people off is because you're coming across as preachy, and yet you sound really young and, yes, green and so one wonders why it is that you feel qualified to tell others what their "highest calling" should be. I suspect once you've had a bit more life experience, you'll recognise all that is wrong with your proverb, but maybe not, I would hope however, you might be able to express your enthusiasm with more ... discretion.

I'm going easy on you because I do think you're young and essentially well-intentioned, if misguided, and I don't think you deserve the hammering some people are giving you.

Actually I have my own ideas of what INTP is like, and I do think I fit pretty neatly into it, more than any other type. And I have a lot of nice extra things like empathy and passion. I just don't fit neatly into everyone's idea of it.
Do you know what you just said ? You said "not only am I INTP, I'm better than INTP, because I have things other INTPs lack: passion and empathy". I wouldn't mind, but you say these things with no hint of irony.
From what I've seen of you, the way you have conducted yourself to date has been rather ignorant and weirdly entitled.
You should probably think more and post less.
 

greenfairy

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I think the idea of gender harmony falls apart when you realize that the members of a gender don't all have the same traits/functions. Let's use MBTI terminology just to have a similar vocabulary. As an INTP woman I don't think I function the same way as an ESFJ female. An INFP man and and an ESTP man have different functions. They way that we all interact with each other will take different forms that cannot be predicted by gender.

An INFP man would probably be more in touch with the "source" to begin with than me. I feel like this proverb describes a very particular personality combination/dynamic.

Good points. Thanks.

Since I like complimentary polarities so much, I took the liberty of exploring the yin-yang dynamic in typology. Here's what I came up with. It's not perfect, just a starting place. (yang= +, yin= -.)
E + I -
N + S -
T + F -
J + P -

Ne + Ni -
Se + Si -
Te + Ti -
Fe + Fi -

Currently I'm playing with it, but it's not working, so I'll have to get back to you on it.

But anyway, each person is a mix of polarities. And I agree, different types would express them in very different ways, so the proverb would apply to some people this way more than others.
 

greenfairy

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What would you say are gender differences beyond physical differences? Are those evident throughout all members of each gender?

No they're not evident in all members, it's just seeing trends. I use trends to make generalizations. I don't know all of them, I just know they exist. It makes sense. It seems to me that nature would produce such things for a reason. Maybe there aren't that many beyond physical. I like to think there are, because I like celebrating the genders as sacred representations of Spirit. Not for everyone I suppose.
 

rav3n

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And I'm supposed to determine my type how else?
A starting point would be to differentiate between what you wish and what is. You wish to believe you're a logical dom but you lead with subjective rationale.


I don't really understand this, but to the extent that I do I don't agree. Possible though. I don't see where I've been using Fi. You're welcome to point it out, but I'd prefer if you did it on the thread I started for analyzing my type. Lots of sarcasm and absurdity though.
If you don't understand it, how can you disagree? That's irrational.

Funny, I thought the tribal mentality, which I tend to embrace, is very Fe.
The feeling function, regardless of attitude, is people oriented.

Ok, but my self-actualization isn't relevant to the thread either. Or my internal delusion, except to the extent that it affects my statements, which it doesn't as they don't depend on me being a certain type. I'd almost suspect at this point that you are trying to employ Fe rather than Te, as you are focused on me (the human element) rather than my specific ideas (objective facts or not).
Me? Fe? Ha ha...sure, sure. And pigs fly! :D

If you wish to convince others of hypothesis for usage, it has to stand the test of whether or not it has worked for you. In order to understand if it has worked for you, you have to understand and be honest with yourself. Otherwise, you're nothing but a snake oil salesman.

So that's your counter-argument?
Just trying to help you out with your first baby step towards any form of self-actualisation.

It could just as easily be Ne (patterns)-Ti (application)-Si (experience)-Fe (social application). Could it not?
Nope. Refer to defense of.

No, embracing the gender binary isn't for everyone. But if you have a gender and you are in a relationship with another gendered person, you will each have individual gender associated differences, which will ideally be in balance with each other. So if you see this as a gender binary, you are participating in it whether you believe in it or not. If you choose to believe it's something else, then your argument is irrelevant.
Let's consolidate this. Relationships require that partners get along. No need for bullshittery and attempts to wrap things up in fluffy mysticism.
 

Pseudo

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Good points. Thanks.

Since I like complimentary polarities so much, I took the liberty of exploring the yin-yang dynamic in typology. Here's what I came up with. It's not perfect, just a starting place. (yang= +, yin= -.)
E + I -
N + S -
T + F -
J + P -

Ne + Ni -
Se + Si -
Te + Ti -
Fe + Fi -

Currently I'm playing with it, but it's not working, so I'll have to get back to you on it.

But anyway, each person is a mix of polarities. And I agree, different types would express them in very different ways, so the proverb would apply to some people this way more than others.

I fon't think people are disagreeing with the idea of complimentary personalities working together. They are disagree that every man and every woman have the same function in a complimentary system.
The problem is that the proverb doesn't refer to "some" men and "some" women. I think that is why people are having a problem with it.
 

Pseudo

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No they're not evident in all members, it's just seeing trends. I use trends to make generalizations. I don't know all of them, I just know they exist. It makes sense. It seems to me that nature would produce such things for a reason. Maybe there aren't that many beyond physical. I like to think there are, because I like celebrating the genders as sacred representations of Spirit. Not for everyone I suppose.


Basically you are saying that you know it's untrue but choose to believe it anyway? If something is not true in all cases that means that is is false. For example the statement "all women like pizza" is not true in all cases and is therefor false. Wanting it to be true doesn't seem like a compelling explanation for belief and if you can't identify them how can you defend them?
 

greenfairy

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Um..who says it's "best"? There are a million and one ways to self-actualise, some of them don't even require a partner!
I'm not saying there is one right way to be balanced. I'm saying that's what I see in the way the world works. I'm asserting it as a fact not a moral proscription.
The reason you're pissing people off is because you're coming across as preachy, and yet you sound really young and, yes, green and so one wonders why it is that you feel qualified to tell others what their "highest calling" should be. I suspect once you've had a bit more life experience, you'll recognise all that is wrong with your proverb, but maybe not, I would hope however, you might be able to express your enthusiasm with more ... discretion.

I'm going easy on you because I do think you're young and essentially well-intentioned, if misguided, and I don't think you deserve the hammering some people are giving you.
I wasn't aware I was preaching anything. I'm just putting my thoughts out there. I'm not saying people should do anything. The point of the OP, as I've said, is just to see what people think and then share what I think. I'm not saying I wholeheartedly agree with it in every way and think everyone should behave accordingly. My own personal attachment ends in thinking it is a nice concept which goes nicely with my spiritual beliefs. Which I'm not pushing on anyone. I'm just defending them from what I see as unfair criticism (i.e. calling them nonsense).

Is there something I could change in the way I express myself to make this more clear?


Do you know what you just said ? You said "not only am I INTP, I'm better than INTP, because I have things other INTPs lack: passion and empathy". I wouldn't mind, but you say these things with no hint of irony.
From what I've seen of you, the way you have conducted yourself to date has been rather ignorant and weirdly entitled.
You should probably think more and post less.

Well...that is essentially what I think. Having extra things is not better, except that I like it better. I like being a well rounded and balanced person. There are some things I don't do so well. I started out with a lot of problems, from different types. And I mostly solved them, by developing associated cognitive functions. There are plenty of other people who are a mix of types with unique strengths and weaknesses, and they can solve their problems and acquire strengths by developing functions. I didn't mean to imply I'm better. I was kind of joking that way and it didn't really translate.

I know my social skills need a bit of work. I'll continue to be mindful of how I come across, and I appreciate feedback if it's done respectfully.
 

greenfairy

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Basically you are saying that you know it's untrue but choose to believe it anyway? If something is not true in all cases that means that is is false. For example the statement "all women like pizza" is not true in all cases and is therefor false. Wanting it to be true doesn't seem like a compelling explanation for belief and if you can't identify them how can you defend them?

I never said anything was true for all members of a group. I think there are biological differences both physical and otherwise, but I can't prove it. So it's a probably not a yes. Based on internal logical reasoning (or so I like to think), without scientific validation handy. Or maybe Ni. I've probably read several things and don't remember what they were or where I found them. Doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. I see patterns and trends and make generalizations, then fit those into a framework. The things I say are not meant to be taken to extremes.
 

Salomé

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greenfairy said:
Having extra things is not better
:doh: My point is that you don't have "extra things". You don't even have the basics!

Allow me to illustrate:
Post #207 is a good example of INTP posting style.
Post #203 (amongst others) is a good example of the opposite of INTP posting style.

Hope this helps.

(I still don't think it really matters, but seriously, don't tell us how great your Ti is and then come up with this shite, or you'll just be ripped to shreds. It's not that it's impossible for an INFP to have well-developed Ti (see OrangeAppled for a good example) it's just that you're not one of them.)
 

Pseudo

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I never said anything was true for all members of a group. I think there are biological differences both physical and otherwise, but I can't prove it. So it's a probably not a yes. Based on internal logical reasoning (or so I like to think), without scientific validation handy. Or maybe Ni. I've probably read several things and don't remember what they were or where I found them. Doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. I see patterns and trends and make generalizations, then fit those into a framework. The things I say are not meant to be taken to extremes.

I feel in the framework of the scientific method you've determined your hypothesis and then not bothered to go through with the experiment. Which is strange to me because them you aren't really arriving at any truth. I also think extremes are necessary to determine truth because generalizations just breed all kinds of problems by overlooking outliers which are legitimate realities.

Could you even begin to describe the trends you've noticed so we can have some kind of understanding of what you are getting at? There might be a legitimate idea in there somewhere but we'll never get at it if we don't have a jumping off point.

And to be honest I understand the whole InTP/INFP debacle now. I'm not suggest your thoughts are invalid but you approach this from a much different angle than i think most INTPs do. I think
Most INTPs assume that their is an underlying universal truth which can be found by stripping away personal and subject influences. You seem to believe that our personal and subject experiences are truth itself and that by stripping this away we move into a classified, codified system that is actually farther from reality which in my opinion is very "feelery".
 

greenfairy

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A starting point would be to differentiate between what you wish and what is. You wish to believe you're a logical dom but you lead with subjective rationale.
Specific examples?

That may be, but I don't see it.

If you don't understand it, how can you disagree? That's irrational.
I said that I disagree with what of it I do think I understand. What I don't, I reserve judgment on. It might be that I don't properly understand any of it.

The feeling function, regardless of attitude, is people oriented.
That's true, but it seems to me based on what I've read of the functions that I use Fe more than Fi. Could be wrong, but that's my assessment. And the tribal mentality being Fe refutes the claim that the whole thread is Fi.

If you wish to convince others of hypothesis for usage, it has to stand the test of whether or not it has worked for you. In order to understand if it has worked for you, you have to understand and be honest with yourself. Otherwise, you're nothing but a snake oil salesman.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to follow the OP. Just pointing out its advantages as I see them. I don't know what you're implying I'm trying to sell. Are you saying that me mistyping myself in your opinion throws everything I have to say into question? Because I still think it's completely irrelevant.

Just trying to help you out with your first baby step towards any form of self-actualisation.
Fe behavior.
Nope. Refer to defense of.
My claim is as well defended as yours.
Let's consolidate this. Relationships require that partners get along. No need for bullshittery and attempts to wrap things up in fluffy mysticism.
True. But some people find incorporating the spiritual element to be useful and enjoyable. Obviously you don't and I do.
 

greenfairy

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I fon't think people are disagreeing with the idea of complimentary personalities working together. They are disagree that every man and every woman have the same function in a complimentary system.
The problem is that the proverb doesn't refer to "some" men and "some" women. I think that is why people are having a problem with it.

I see. It certainly would have helped if people had made that clear. I actually agree on this, which is why I took steps to say in my personal reflection that I see it as more complex and holistic. Also if you take into account the culture, it would suggest otherwise. It's true that it appears this way on the surface- I'm just saying proverbs are meant to be looked at more deeply. So I guess it's effective for people who do, and not effective for people who want to evaluate things based on surface clarity.
 

Orangey

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INFP? Ha.

ESFJs are the ones who eat this crappy-dress-old-vague-ideas-up-in-new-age-clothes stuff right up.
 

rav3n

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Specific examples?

That may be, but I don't see it.
I've done this for you within this thread and another. Both times, denial. Asking over and over for evidence already presented, is a waste of my time.


I said that I disagree with what of it I do think I understand. What I don't, I reserve judgment on. It might be that I don't properly understand any of it.
Analogous:

Sentence reads, 'There were fifteen pigs being marched towards slaughter'.

OMG, I disagree, I hate pigs.

That's true, but it seems to me based on what I've read of the functions that I use Fe more than Fi. Could be wrong, but that's my assessment. And the tribal mentality being Fe refutes the claim that the whole thread is Fi.
Never said the content of this thread was Fe or Fi. I've only stated that your explanations and rationales are Fi-based.

I'm not trying to convince anyone to follow the OP. Just pointing out its advantages as I see them. I don't know what you're implying I'm trying to sell. Are you saying that me mistyping myself in your opinion throws everything I have to say into question? Because I still think it's completely irrelevant.
Can't speak for others but when your rationales aren't rational, where they're all fluff and stuff coming from someone who has no idea who they are and how to express themselves in ways that might enlighten or convince others, it's impossible to take the snake oil salesman seriously.

Fe behavior.
Fi. Get with authenticity. Delusion is annoying.

My claim is as well defended as yours.
No.

True. But some people find incorporating the spiritual element to be useful and enjoyable. Obviously you don't and I do.
The difference between NFs and NTs.
 

Pseudo

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I see. It certainly would have helped if people had made that clear. I actually agree on this, which is why I took steps to say in my personal reflection that I see it as more complex and holistic. Also if you take into account the culture, it would suggest otherwise. It's true that it appears this way on the surface- I'm just saying proverbs are meant to be looked at more deeply. So I guess it's effective for people who do, and not effective for people who want to evaluate things based on surface clarity.

?????

I agree that the idea of sexual intercourse ( two different but complimentary being coming together to create something more than themselves) is a useful analogy for the integration of all sorts of different people. But that isn't the meaning of this proverb. The proverb clearly states that there is a gender binary and distinct gender roles. If the proverb is supposed to mean something different why is it written in this specific way? I don't think it's a case of people only seeing the surface meaning, but just disagreeing with the actual meaning (which in my opinion isn't all that complex to begin with).

Could you explain what the more complex meaning is?
 

Pseudo

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:doh: My point is that you don't have "extra things". You don't even have the basics!

Allow me to illustrate:
Post #207 is a good example of INTP posting style.
Post #203 (amongst others) is a good example of the opposite of INTP posting style.

Hope this helps.

(I still don't think it really matters, but seriously, don't tell us how great your Ti is and then come up with this shite, or you'll just be ripped to shreds. It's not that it's impossible for an INFP to have well-developed Ti (see OrangeAppled for a good example) it's just that you're not one of them.)


Hellllllllllz yeah. Representing for the INTPs with that

highly robotic,
logical, neurotic,
devotion sans emotion
to destroying the quixotic.
 

greenfairy

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Ok, going to work. Be back later tonight. I'll end this for now with the following.

I would appreciate it if people could just trust that I know myself and base their arguments on my ideas not who I am. K? Fi request if you want to label it as such. Just forget about what type I am. And if you have specific examples of me using a certain CF, or why I look like a certain type, do it in the appropriate thread and provide evidence of why it looks like the function. Yes, [MENTION=10808]andante[/MENTION], you've pointed out things that look Fi to you, but you didn't give any reasoning. Ok, so it looks subjective and feely. That's kind of vague. In what ways does it look that way? How is it different from other functions? You're not going very far into typology to explain yourself. You list functions, but don't explain how they fit what they're describing. Elaborate please.

K bai.
 

Pseudo

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I'm still interested in your responses to the beginning of post #211 and pot #216. They aren't type related.
 
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