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  1. #551
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    As an aside, an interesting thing I noticed with gender neutrality proponents is when they suggest avoiding stigmatized gender symbols - such as pink, or G.I. Joe toys.

    I do not see this as fair or actually neutral. Yes, it eliminates the stigmas, at the cost of forced homogeneity.

    Of course there will be neutrality if we strip out all the contentious items. I'm not arguing that it isn't effective. But if we want to see true tendencies we must allow all options, including the stigmatized ones, and more importantly not judge them nor teach the child to judge them. It's only then that we could see, scientifically, if girls actually do tend to like pink.
    Sometimes avoidance of the "stigmatized items" is more to avoid eliciting normative expressions from the adults around than curtailing the choices of children.

    In any case, it is more effective to provide more open-ended alternatives than to ban the stereotypical ones. When kids really do have a variety of options, and can make unconstrained choices among them, they can surprise us. Then, if a girl chooses barbies and a boy chooses trucks, it more likely reflects their real desires.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  2. #552
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    WTF!!?? This thread was started what, like 2 days ago and it already has 56 pages!

  3. #553
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    The people who are dismissing this are doing so because in modern society, many (most?) of us see no benefit in generalizing gender roles or stereotypes. We prefer to maintain equality of opportunity, and let each person make of him/herself what he/she may.
    I agree with this; however I see no reason why thinking of genders as generally different and therefore special should translate into any kind of limiting action for anyone. I will celebrate both the masculine and feminine characteristics I see in men I like, and I tend to be attracted to more masculine men. But I don't expect anything from them based on it. How people express their characteristics is their choice. I'd like a guy to physically protect me to the extent he is able, and I will protect him to the extent that I am able. It means we care about each other's safety. It's just usually the case that he can do a better job of it physically than I can. And in return I make him feel secure and good about himself, because I appreciate him.

    Personal experience again. But so you know I'm not some old fashioned person who thinks men should support women and pay for their food and hold the door open and stuff and I should be home cooking.

  4. #554
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    I'm all for the imagination, after all, poetry, literature, movies, art, sculpture, graffiti, dance and religion are based in imagination, just as tree sprites find their home in our imagination, and all we have to do is suspend our disbelief.

  5. #555
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think some people resist the idea of gender wide norms when they don't really fit into them. I'm a not a very good at nurturing or in tune with emotion and it's hard when I'm presented with these types of ideas because I don't think I should have to feel less womanly for not fitting into someone's romantic notion of gender compliments. If you express and dissent with these idea your are typically called a feminazi, a lesbian, or accused of being in denial.
    Yeah, and that's a fair point. I'm not really the feminine stereotype either. I've had to learn how to be emotionally nurturing. (Now I can do it with intimate partners, but with random people I'm still pretty bad at it.)

  6. #556
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Which are? If we use MBTI terminology the idea that the genders are hardwired for certain psychological traits means that we wouldn't see an overlap in personality types across gender.
    No, but there is are slight trends in which there are more female: extroverts, sensors, feelers, and judgers according to this website:
    http://mrob.com/pub/MBTI-16.html

    Unless I'm reading it incorrectly, which is highly possible as it's kind of confusing.

  7. #557
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    My choice would be to avoid the "loaded colors" blue and pink. Many of my cousins have had children, and I always look for clothing gifts in bright colors (red, green, royal blue), or earth tones (brown, rust). Many infant toys now feature bright primary colors which catch the attention of babies more readily than the pastels of yesteryear. I don't send anyone Barbies or Gi Joes, but send everyone legos, blocks, trucks, toy pots and pans, balls, puzzles, games, etc. and of course, books. There are too many great toys on the market (and clothes, and home decor and . . . ) to be limited by those old standbys. Girls and boys can eventually ask for Barbie and GI Joe, or anything else, as they make friends, go to school/daycare, and become aware of other options.
    This would also be my choice. I was given these toys when I was young, as well as toys for both genders. I had some model dinosaurs I loved. I played with puzzles all the time, and enjoyed playing with Legos with my (female) cousin

  8. #558
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah so basically "It tends to go this way based on collective data, but there are borderline cases, and cases that go the other way as well."


    As an aside, an interesting thing I noticed with gender neutrality proponents is when they suggest avoiding stigmatized gender symbols - such as pink, or G.I. Joe toys.

    I do not see this as fair or actually neutral. Yes, it eliminates the stigmas, at the cost of forced homogeneity.

    Of course there will be neutrality if we strip out all the contentious items. I'm not arguing that it isn't effective. But if we want to see true tendencies we must allow all options, including the stigmatized ones, and more importantly not judge them nor teach the child to judge them. It's only then that we could see, scientifically, if girls actually do tend to like pink.

    *my take is that most people would probably like pink anyway
    Actually, up until the middle of this century (or at least very recently if I am mistaken), the colors were reversed. Blue was for girls and pink was for boys. I can't find the link right now, but it was in a good one about gender myths.

    Edit:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Check this out. Article is very interesting an pictures are great. http://www.brainpickings.org/index.p...-blue-project/
    Yeah. I got it from a different link, but this gives some info.

  9. #559
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I agree with this; however I see no reason why thinking of genders as generally different and therefore special should translate into any kind of limiting action for anyone. I will celebrate both the masculine and feminine characteristics I see in men I like, and I tend to be attracted to more masculine men. But I don't expect anything from them based on it. How people express their characteristics is their choice. I'd like a guy to physically protect me to the extent he is able, and I will protect him to the extent that I am able. It means we care about each other's safety. It's just usually the case that he can do a better job of it physically than I can. And in return I make him feel secure and good about himself, because I appreciate him.
    I see no reason why the individual ways people appreciate gender must translate into limitations, but unfortunately, many people do. How they see gender becomes how everyone else should see it, or at least how they should act on it. The second bolded comment above makes the most sense: each person in a relationship cares about the other in the ways they do best, and the ways that are necessary.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Yeah, and that's a fair point. I'm not really the feminine stereotype either. I've had to learn how to be emotionally nurturing. (Now I can do it with intimate partners, but with random people I'm still pretty bad at it.)
    "Had to" learn? Better for you simply to want to learn. Otherwise it's just bowing to external expectations again, whether or not they make sense for you.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  10. #560
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    While the original quote is sweet init's own way it's too loaded with gender identity to be relevant to me. Men our souless without women and women are in constant fear of their safety...? I'm sure in the context of it's day it would have been a perfectly apt quote.

    I prefer to think of people as just people. Souls don't have genders only physical bodies do. We express that which is important to our souls regardless of what form our bodies have taken. I choose other souls that I feel connected to. I find it difficult to align myself with any form of spirituality that divides the universe into so-called masculine and feminine energies\roles\genders etc. I believe strongly in an androgynous universe.

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