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  1. #541
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Remember that important word that you missed a while back? 'Tends'? Remember how it took a sentence that wasn't true, and made it true?
    This is another place where we need to use that word.


    Tendency. That important word 'tends'.



    See why bivalence is a problem? Something can't 'tend' to be when you have a bivalent structure. It leads to black and white thinking.

    the problem is that you are overlooking the fact that "tends" is the point we are debating. We are arguing over whether it is appropriate to have a system that says "women do X, and men do Y". I have not problem with the idea that "women tend to do X, and men tend to do Y". But that's not the point we are arguing over. You should be talking to jontherobot about including "Tends".

    I think we discussed before that my thinking is not black and white (and how "tends" can exist in a bivalent structure), I just don't like the acceptance of generalizations as fact because it tends to lead to the problems we are discussing now.

  2. #542
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Your saying that being a woman in a woman's body makes that person more aware of things relating to women? (and of course the same for males)
    I'd agree with that but that seems more like a "nurture" type of situation where multiple women could have multiple responses based on differences between their bodies. i.e taller women, weaker women, blind women ect. So I would think it would still be inappropriate to expect them to experience their gender the same way.

    Perhaps, I am simply stating that even a woman in a woman's body and man in a man's body under near identical circumstances will likely have some statistical difference on preference of situations and things of the like.

    But maybe not. I'm mostly using my intuition, which is notoriously misleading with statistics.

  3. #543
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    the problem is that you are overlooking the fact that "tends" is the point we are debating. We are arguing over whether it is appropriate to have a system that says "women do X, and men do Y". I have not problem with the idea that "women tend to do X, and men tend to do Y". But that's not the point we are arguing over. You should be talking to jontherobot about including "Tends".

    I think we discussed before that my thinking is not black and white (and how "tends" can exist in a bivalent structure), I just don't like the acceptance of generalizations as fact because it tends to lead to the problems we are discussing now.
    Ok.
    I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I was responding to your post:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Which are? If we use MBTI terminology the idea that the genders are hardwired for certain psychological traits means that we wouldn't see an overlap in personality types across gender.
    To me, stating that there wouldn't be an overlap is stating that "women do x and men do y" and I was saying why that doesn't have to be the case. The only reason there couldn't be overlap is if things were strictly defined. i.e. what you're hardwired for is what you get and nothing else.

    But there can be overlap because that isn't the case.

    So I guess you were saying something else with that but there was a misunderstanding.

  4. #544
    Analytical Dreamer Coriolis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    The main area we were having trouble reconciling was to what extent you give choice. I would paint a boys walls blue, but probably not pink, (unless he asked, I'm assuming all of these situations as very young children). I would paint a girl's walls probably a more 'girly' color, blue would work but maybe my wife is fond of yellow? I don't know. What toys do you buy them? Do you buy boys GI Joes and females Barbies before they even have the capability to 'choose', or is that prescribing them to what society says they should play with?

    My friend I was talking with (female) said it's unfair girls don't get to play with Lego's. She said her parents never bought them for her. I asked her if she ever asked for them.... she hadn't. Did society fail her, or was it not in her natural inclination to play with Lego's? Who knows?

    It's all very complex, IMO, and I have only recently begun to think about it.
    Thinking about it is more than many people do; they just follow their own upbringing, or what their friends are doing, or what popular culture promotes, without thinking.

    In order to make a real choice, one must be aware of options, and free of constraints. In your example, it is unlikely a girl will ask for legos if she is not familiar with them, and/or if she thinks her parents will disapprove. For example, if she always hears her parents, teachers, etc. refer to legos as "for boys". My choice would be to avoid the "loaded colors" blue and pink. Many of my cousins have had children, and I always look for clothing gifts in bright colors (red, green, royal blue), or earth tones (brown, rust). Many infant toys now feature bright primary colors which catch the attention of babies more readily than the pastels of yesteryear. I don't send anyone Barbies or Gi Joes, but send everyone legos, blocks, trucks, toy pots and pans, balls, puzzles, games, etc. and of course, books. There are too many great toys on the market (and clothes, and home decor and . . . ) to be limited by those old standbys. Girls and boys can eventually ask for Barbie and GI Joe, or anything else, as they make friends, go to school/daycare, and become aware of other options.
    I've been called a criminal, a terrorist, and a threat to the known universe. But everything you were told is a lie. The truth is, they've taken our freedom, our home, and our future. The time has come for all humanity to take a stand...

  5. #545
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coriolis View Post
    Thinking about it is more than many people do; they just follow their own upbringing, or what their friends are doing, or what popular culture promotes, without thinking.

    In order to make a real choice, one must be aware of options, and free of constraints. In your example, it is unlikely a girl will ask for legos if she is not familiar with them, and/or if she thinks her parents will disapprove. For example, if she always hears her parents, teachers, etc. refer to legos as "for boys". My choice would be to avoid the "loaded colors" blue and pink. Many of my cousins have had children, and I always look for clothing gifts in bright colors (red, green, royal blue), or earth tones (brown, rust). Many infant toys now feature bright primary colors which catch the attention of babies more readily than the pastels of yesteryear. I don't send anyone Barbies or Gi Joes, but send everyone legos, blocks, trucks, toy pots and pans, balls, puzzles, games, etc. and of course, books. There are too many great toys on the market (and clothes, and home decor and . . . ) to be limited by those old standbys. Girls and boys can eventually ask for Barbie and GI Joe, or anything else, as they make friends, go to school/daycare, and become aware of other options.

    Hm, very interesting. I'm a far way off from having kids, but I feel when I get there I'll do a decent job of doing the things you speak of.

  6. #546
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Perhaps, I am simply stating that even a woman in a woman's body and man in a man's body under near identical circumstances will likely have some statistical difference on preference of situations and things of the like.

    But maybe not. I'm mostly using my intuition, which is notoriously misleading with statistics.
    It might be more clear if you expound on the meaning of 'statistical difference'

    I'm pretty sure I'm getting it, it seems to imply an inferred trend and not an absolute, but this seems to be getting skipped over.

  7. #547
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    It might be more clear if you expound on the meaning of 'statistical difference'

    I'm pretty sure I'm getting it, it seems to imply an inferred trend and not an absolute, but this seems to be getting skipped over.

    Hmm, inferred trend. That would likely be a good way to put it, I don't know if I could do better, to be honest.

  8. #548
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jontherobot View Post
    Hmm, inferred trend. That would likely be a good way to put it, I don't know if I could do better, to be honest.
    Yeah so basically "It tends to go this way based on collective data, but there are borderline cases, and cases that go the other way as well."


    As an aside, an interesting thing I noticed with gender neutrality proponents is when they suggest avoiding stigmatized gender symbols - such as pink, or G.I. Joe toys.

    I do not see this as fair or actually neutral. Yes, it eliminates the stigmas, at the cost of forced homogeneity.

    Of course there will be neutrality if we strip out all the contentious items. I'm not arguing that it isn't effective. But if we want to see true tendencies we must allow all options, including the stigmatized ones, and more importantly not judge them nor teach the child to judge them. It's only then that we could see, scientifically, if girls actually do tend to like pink.

    *my take is that most people would probably like pink anyway

  9. #549
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Ok.
    I must have misunderstood what you were saying. I was responding to your post:


    To me, stating that there wouldn't be an overlap is stating that "women do x and men do y" and I was saying why that doesn't have to be the case. The only reason there couldn't be overlap is if things were strictly defined. i.e. what you're hardwired for is what you get and nothing else.

    But there can be overlap because that isn't the case.

    So I guess you were saying something else with that but there was a misunderstanding.
    Yeah on this post I was stating what I thought jontherobots position was. I could have been clearer about that. Mea culpa!

  10. #550
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yeah so basically "It tends to go this way based on collective data, but there are borderline cases, and cases that go the other way as well."


    As an aside, an interesting thing I noticed with gender neutrality proponents is when they suggest avoiding stigmatized gender symbols - such as pink, or G.I. Joe toys.

    I do not see this as fair or actually neutral. Yes, it eliminates the stigmas, at the cost of forced homogeneity.

    Of course there will be neutrality if we strip out all the contentious items. I'm not arguing that it isn't effective. But if we want to see true tendencies we must allow all options, including the stigmatized ones, and more importantly not judge them nor teach the child to judge them. It's only then that we could see, scientifically, if girls actually do tend to like pink.

    *my take is that most people would probably like pink anyway

    Check this out. Article is very interesting an pictures are great. http://www.brainpickings.org/index.p...-blue-project/

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