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  1. #451
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    If I continue to be illogical for long enough, can I vaporize you from ever existing? Shouldn't be too hard, if I can remove all the dinosaurs.

    And snake oil isn't my cup of tea. I prefer red hibiscus flowers.
    Consider your logic. If there are no beings perceiving an object, that object doesn't exist. There were no beings perceiving dinosaurs, so they never existed.

    You're confusing subjective perception with objective truth or objective reality.

  2. #452
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    Consider your logic. If there are no beings perceiving an object, that object doesn't exist. There were no beings perceiving dinosaurs, so they never existed.

    You're confusing subjective perception with objective truth or objective reality.
    No, I said multiple times that objective reality exists. My point it that truth value is irrelevant if there is no one to acknowledge it. Do you see the difference?

  3. #453
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    value
    The crux of the entire thread. Value based assumptions.

  4. #454
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    If no beings exist, there is no untruth. If there is no untruth there is no truth, unless you are thinking of truth as something independent of contrast, in which case it is rather meaningless. Truth and reality only matter to the extent that there is unreality (<-- as a theoretical concept) and untruth. So truth is directly relevant to its perception.

    Flawed logic.

    For untrue statement or lies to exist you need fallible beings/liars to exist.

    Truth does not actually need anything to exist. The truth in that case would be "nothing exists". Untruth in that case would be that something exists but with nothing to make such a claim that untruth wouldn't exist. The contrast would theoretically exist but not a lie or untrue atatement

  5. #455
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Flawed logic.

    For untrue statement or lies to exist you need fallible beings/liars to exist.

    Truth does not actually need anything to exist. The truth in that case would be "nothing exists". Untruth in that case would be that something exists but with nothing to make such a claim that untruth wouldn't exist. The contrast would theoretically exist but not a lie or untrue atatement
    True enough. But then why would you need the concept of truth? Why not just reality? There would be no (untrue) claim that a being exists, because there would be no being to claim it. So no untruth would exist, and truth would be irrelevant.

    Can you give me a counterexample? Give me a situation in which no beings exist but untruth exists.

  6. #456
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by andante View Post
    The crux of the entire thread. Value based assumptions.
    I have not professed values of any sort, beyond post #30 and the relevant comments. Maybe your Fi sees value when it isn't there?


    I don't remember every single post I made, but if there was any implication of value it was in a small minority.

  7. #457
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    True enough. But then why would you need the concept of truth? Why not just reality? There would be no (untrue) claim that a being exists, because there would be no being to claim it. So no untruth would exist, and truth would be irrelevant.

    Can you give me a counterexample? Give me a situation in which no beings exist but untruth exists.
    I don't have an example of that because I already explained why it wouldn't happen.

    you wpuldn't need to distinguish truth from Reality in that situation but we do because liars and fallible beings exist in out world.

  8. #458
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I have not professed values of any sort, beyond post #30 and the relevant comments. Maybe your Fi sees value when it isn't there?


    I don't remember every single post I made, but if there was any implication of value it was in a small minority.
    You value utilitarian beliefs despite the fact that they don't reflect reality

  9. #459
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    You value utilitarian beliefs despite the fact that they don't reflect reality
    I don't necessarily value them. I said they are useful. Hence the word utilitarian. They are useful to me. Maybe I don't value them. But it's still useful for me to have them. And for a lot of other people as well.

  10. #460
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I don't have an example of that because I already explained why it wouldn't happen.

    you wpuldn't need to distinguish truth from Reality in that situation but we do because liars and fallible beings exist in out world.
    Right, truth is only relevant to beings existing and comprehending it. How is what you are saying now and what I am saying different?

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