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  1. #411
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Right, but my point is that if you are to translate this objective reality into language, it would not have universal agreement. Logic uses language. So objective reality is beyond language and logic. For that matter I think we are talking about reality, because truth implies some sort of awareness of reality. And if people's awareness of reality is subjective, then truth is (at least sometimes) subjective.

    You cant't have a subjective perception that doesn't exist in the first place. There must be an objective reality to respond to for us to be able to form subjective opinions.

    Agin just because we cannot understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    You are twisting the concept of "truth" into "your opinion". Something that is true is not false, regardless of anyone's thoughts

  2. #412
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    You cant't have a subjective perception that doesn't exist in the first place. There must be an objective reality to respond to for us to be able to form subjective opinions.

    Agin just because we cannot understand something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

    You are twisting the concept of "truth" into "your opinion". Something that is true is not false, regardless of anyone's thoughts
    Actually you can in the case of hallucinations. Or am I misunderstanding?
    Yes objective reality must exist for us to respond to it, but truth by its very nature implies cognition. Which means if there were no beings to be aware of reality, truth would cease to be relevant. We would only have reality.

  3. #413
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Right, but we are talking here about physical objects which can be objectively observed. Spirits or consciousness are not purely physical int his sense. So I don't think the argument applies.
    I doesn't matter if they can be observed by us, it doesn't change the essence of what they are. Imagine the cube is camaflouged. You can't perceive it at all be it still exists.

  4. #414
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Isn't this necessary in most cases in the real world? Doesn't understanding and knowledge of anything require it?
    Yes exactly. We have to qualify things we are not certain of inorder for them to be true which is when we should just be okay with generalizations. Me and sprinkles came to this conclusion several pages back.

  5. #415
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    So "I see a square" is correct but "that is a square" is not. So again our subject truth isn't really true unless with qualify it with some reference to the limitations of our own perception.
    I specified: visualization. Not your understanding of the visualization. Fuck, is there a difference between a visual and a visualization? I think I meant visualization.

  6. #416
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I doesn't matter if they can be observed by us, it doesn't change the essence of what they are. Imagine the cube is camaflouged. You can't perceive it at all be it still exists.
    True. My point is in reference to our discussion of utilitarian beliefs. If the essence of something is beyond our comprehension, we have to use the mental frameworks we have at the moment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yes exactly. We have to qualify things we are not certain of inorder for them to be true which is when we should just be okay with generalizations. Me and sprinkles came to this conclusion several pages back.
    Oh yeah, I saw that. I thought this was arguing against the above.

  7. #417
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Actually you can in the case of hallucinations. Or am I misunderstanding?
    Yes objective reality must exist for us to respond to it, but truth by its very nature implies cognition. Which means if there were no beings to be aware of reality, truth would cease to be relevant. We would only have reality.
    Hallucinations are brought on by some physical circumstances (brain chemistry, sensory malfunction ect).

    Truth has nothing to do with cognition. That makes no sense. A world devoid of people still exists. It would be true that earth existed regardless if a human was there it precieve that it was so.

  8. #418
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Hallucinations are brought on by some physical circumstances (brain chemistry, sensory malfunction ect).

    Truth has nothing to do with cognition. That makes no sense. A world devoid of people still exists. It would be true that earth existed regardless if a human was there it precieve that it was so.
    I'm discussing the difference int he words "reality" and "truth." I guess we have different definitions. Or in your mind they mean the same thing.

  9. #419
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm discussing the difference int he words "reality" and "truth." I guess we have different definitions. Or in your mind they mean the same thing.
    They are the same thing.

  10. #420
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Actually I just looked up truth in the dictionary. It essentially means conformity to reality. So it is an objective measurement. So you are right, but it could also be argued that since it is a measurement, if no being exists to measure it, it is irrelevant. It could also be argued that anything untrue is imagined- which does imply mental activity in a being. Correct? So if there were no beings, there would be no untruth, and so truth would be irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    They are the same thing.
    There are all kinds of common language meanings of truth btw.

    Edit: there are at least 10 definitions of truth in the dictionary.

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