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  1. #391
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Hmmm but that doesn't mean the truth is multiple things. The fuel gauge for instance is notifying you of a true quantity of gas that is less than full and more than empty. Yes our language refers to it as "empty" when actual it is just low but that doesn't change the truh of he matter.
    Right, but if you hook that up to a pump that is automated, you have a problem because pumps are dumb. A pump just knows "on/off" so how do you tell it to not toggle constantly and burn itself out?

    Say if you have a constant flow coming in, and as soon as the pump detects the level, it turns on. When the level drops, it turns off. It's going to flip back and forth wildly.

    So, what you tell the switch via a float mechanism is "If it touches this value, turn on or stay on" and "If it touches this different value, turn off stay off" and the values actually overlap each other. There will be values that are both on and off values. Such as, if it turns on at 4 liters, but turns off at 2 liters, 3 liters can be either an 'on' or 'off' value depending on the last value of the switch itself. It will pass 3 when filling, and pass 3 again when emptying.

    Edit: also, this type of logic allows you to store two or more pieces of information on a digital bit, such as detecting a low to high input that indicates one thing, and a specific voltage range that indicates something else.

  2. #392

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    functions are relevant here. Fi users hold functions as an ends in and of themselves. I think my values serve a purpose, but I'd still believe them even if they didn't.
    You are a conscious living being with a will. You have agendas to promote, however mundane or grandiose. --Driving to your favorite cafe for breakfast or saving the rainforest or soliciting your coworkers for donations to the Coffee Fund or passing legislature to protect children because you believe they deserve it. These things are fueled by your wants, needs, preferences, aspirations. Coupled with your life experience and that of others, these shape your individual and group "values."

    Due to the nature of the (historical) Native American lifestyle and the way of life they wished to maintain, that particular value had merit for them; it served a purpose. It doesn't mean it has no value or purpose to anyone else, but we are discussing that particular "proverb" espoused by that particular tribe. I think it is safe to say that their way of life is essentially defunct now in 2012. Social mores are constantly evolving because the societies they belong to are constantly evolving. Apart from "the value of living," I can't think of any single social more that hasn't had its day in the sun then slipped into the shadows of more relevant mores.

    I also think that it is easy to romanticize an ideology that you are not on the wrong end of.
    "The purpose of life is to be defeated by greater and greater things." - Rainer Maria Rilke

  3. #393
    Ginkgo
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    Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I found another version of this proverb:

    “A woman’s highest calling is to lead a man to his soul, so as to unite him with Source. Her lowest calling is to seduce, separating man from his soul and leave him aimlessly wandering. A man’s highest calling is to protect woman, so she is free to walk the earth unharmed. Man’s lowest calling is to ambush and force his way into the life of a woman.”

    I think this gives us a broader scope of the message here, as it implies that the unity of the individual soul isn't dependent on the souls of peers. Perhaps it also means that we may best respect each other in practicing self-respect, acknowledging our potential to be a damaging force and a healing force in the lives of ourselves and others. If we acknowledge this, then I think we will lead by example, and in doing so we may be liberated in cooperative charity, finding the "highest calling" by reflecting on both callings.

    It's funny that, with all this yin yang being thrown about, the Original Post fixates on the gender/sexuality in yin yang and omits the rest. It may as well omit all of it.

  4. #394
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    And there is nothing boring or egocentric about this thread...
    Like I said, why should I go to all that trouble to do you a favour? I'm not interested in your type, anyway.
    I'm just (one of many) pointing out the untruthfulness of your claim to excel in logic.
    My grades in logic courses suggest otherwise. Maybe my communication sucks.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    I can't prove you're not an idiot, is that a good reason for me to believe you are?
    If it makes your day better to believe I'm an idiot, by all means do it. I can't stop you anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The burden of proof is always on the person making nonsensical claims.
    Yes, if I was trying to prove something. Which I'm not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Yes. It does.
    Wrong. Andante said I was using an appeal to authority, which I was not, because I was not arguing anything. Fallacies are only relevant to persuasion or argumentation, or asserting some sort of fact. I was not even coming to a conclusion. I was just seeing if I could apply logical rules to a paragraph, and didn't do it exactly right. So I misremembered. That's not a fallacy. Then I asked what she was referring to, which is not a fallacy.

  5. #395
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Regardless of whether you can prove that trees have spirits, they either do or do not.

    All i could derive from this post is that you define spirit as the electrical activity of matter. Which we can prove exists. I don't see the point of thinking symbolically in regards to explaining your concept of the world. It literature or poems sure. But "utilitarian beliefs" seem to simply be "saying what you don't actually mean because it sounds more poetic and mystical than the truth".
    I'm saying we don't know all of objective reality, so we need to make a reliable guess that works for us. And the truth of something doesn't have to be binary. If a claim depends on language, it depends on semantics, which are created and understood by humans; so it will depend on definition. So it can be true and untrue at the same time. If this is describing a natural phenomenon, like int he case of trees having spirits, what I'm saying is that the natural phenomenon we are attempting to describe in words may be so far removed from the original claim that it's truth value is kind of irrelevant. If we believe in something called a spirit, and the truth is that it's just electrical interaction, that's not the same thing- but it might behave the same way in many instances and fool us. So believing in one produces much the same result as believing in the other.

  6. #396
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    @sprinkles

    No problem, I was just frustrated because I had started to build a nice little house for us all in the logosphere ......and the greenfairy came along and said "NO! your house is actually a fish and I believe it has a soul!" we're moving to Fairy World!!!


    Interesting side note logosphere can mean both the logical universe and the interpretation of words' meanings based on language and context. Connections
    Well I'm going to Fairy World and you guys don't have to come. Maybe I'll make friends with some XNFP's. I'll come visit and have you all educate me.

  7. #397
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saturned View Post
    In the effort of being fair... yes, yes they do.

    What is this mystical INTP tally you speak of? And why must I be included?

  8. #398
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I'm saying we don't know all of objective reality, so we need to make a reliable guess that works for us. And the truth of something doesn't have to be binary. If a claim depends on language, it depends on semantics, which are created and understood by humans; so it will depend on definition. So it can be true and untrue at the same time. If this is describing a natural phenomenon, like int he case of trees having spirits, what I'm saying is that the natural phenomenon we are attempting to describe in words may be so far removed from the original claim that it's truth value is kind of irrelevant. If we believe in something called a spirit, and the truth is that it's just electrical interaction, that's not the same thing- but it might behave the same way in many instances and fool us. So believing on one produces much the same result as believing in the other.
    That doesn't mean that either claim is untrue, as the truth depends directly on objective reality and an impression of it. Truth does not depend on logos. We may have two non-contradictory explanations of the same thing-in-itself. Though the metaphysical and the physical are mutually exclusive, neither nullifies the existence of the other.

  9. #399
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Right, but if you hook that up to a pump that is automated, you have a problem because pumps are dumb. A pump just knows "on/off" so how do you tell it to not toggle constantly and burn itself out?

    Say if you have a constant flow coming in, and as soon as the pump detects the level, it turns on. When the level drops, it turns off. It's going to flip back and forth wildly.

    So, what you tell the switch via a float mechanism is "If it touches this value, turn on or stay on" and "If it touches this different value, turn off stay off" and the values actually overlap each other. There will be values that are both on and off values. Such as, if it turns on at 4 liters, but turns off at 2 liters, 3 liters can be either an 'on' or 'off' value depending on the last value of the switch itself. It will pass 3 when filling, and pass 3 again when emptying.

    I still don't see how this explains a valued truth. I'm thinking that by valued truth you mean that something can be "partially true" or "mostly true". Basically the idea that you can qualify the statement "women like apples" with the word "some" and it becomes true.

    I don't think that that makes the original statement "partially true". It makes it entirely untrue, hence the need for a new statement describing reality.

    In regards to your mechanical system I would argue that that is a more complex truth but it still functions in one objective way. There are not two overlapping truths but a single complex truth that 3 has been designed to function as both an on and off value

  10. #400
    ✿ڿڰۣஇღ♥ wut ♥ღஇڿڰۣ✿ digesthisickness's Avatar
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    I feel so sorry for any guy expecting me to guide him to a street I've been to fifty times, much less his soul.
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