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  1. #351
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Great summary!

  2. #352
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I didn't ask for it in this thread. It's easy, just go to my profile, click on started threads, and you'll find the relevant ones near the top. I don't want to bring feedback on my type into every discussion because that would be selfish and egocentric, and would bore everyone.
    And there is nothing boring or egocentric about this thread...
    Like I said, why should I go to all that trouble to do you a favour? I'm not interested in your type, anyway.
    I'm just (one of many) pointing out the untruthfulness of your claim to excel in logic.
    You can't really believe you know the full picture of what goes on inside my head.
    I'm rather relieved about that.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Consider the idea that trees have spirits. Can we prove this? No. Can we prove it is not true? No.
    I can't prove you're not an idiot, is that a good reason for me to believe you are?

    The burden of proof is always on the person making nonsensical claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    a tree doesn't have a spirit.
    You know you've entered the twilight zone when Victor is the one making sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    seeing ambiguity where it may not be does not validate the claim that I completely ignore logic, or that I employed a fallacy.
    Yes. It does.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #353
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    You know you've entered the twilight zone when Victor is the one making sense.
    Actually no, not from the route that Victor took that depends on a given definition for 'spirit'.

    It makes about as much sense as my response to it. It's like saying a Force user can't choke you if you don't have a throat.

    Or that a wizard can't cast without mana. What's the problem with that picture?

  4. #354
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    That's why I quoted the conclusion and not the premises.

    You aren't going to drag me into one of your head-fucking abuses of logic! Evil sprinkly thing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  5. #355
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    That's why I quoted the conclusion and not the premises.
    Oh, so that's ok to do now? I hadn't heard. :P

    You aren't going to drag me into one of your head-fucking abuses of logic! Evil sprinkly thing.
    Of course not. I'm way over here and I don't have psychic powers of suggestion (much to my dismay)

  6. #356
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Not necessarily, since it's taking a commonly interpreted statement and turning it into a logical one.

    Your whole argument is built around interpreting the original statement "women love apples" differently than greenfairy interpreted it, and have kind of missed the point because of that.

    You're asserting that there indeed exists a convention in formal logic for converting informal statements. I'd like to see the rule that says 'the all is implied' that you didn't just make up on the spot.


    Yes, that much is true.
    I'd like to know how "women love apples" could possibly mean the same thing as "some women love apples." You'd always have to add a temporal or spatial element to the sentence to do that, which would change the original sentence. Like, "women in Naples love apples," or "women loved apples in the 1960s," or "women loved apples more last year."

    Or, as with @greenfairy's example in which she tried to demonstrate a situation in which they mean the same thing, you'd have to assume that the person saying "women love apples" was not being serious. That is, they either weren't sure of the truth of what they were saying (positing it as a hypothetical or hypothesis, in which case we wouldn't be evaluating the syntax, we'd be waiting for empirical confirmation of its truth value), or they didn't mean it (they were exaggerating, or joking, or whatever other rhetorical ploy) and actually intended to say something along the lines of "some women love apples."

    Either way, there is no actual ambiguity when translating the sentence "women love apples" to FOL, even if there may be ambiguity in the intentions of the person who wrote/said it.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  7. #357
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    @Orangey

    I'd also like to know how one can say "woman love apples" and have it mean "all women love apples" and actually have it be true in the real world.

    This is relevant because the whole tangent of discussion was all about what is true in the real world to begin with, not what's true on paper.

    But anyway, I already hashed this out with The Outsider

  8. #358
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    @Orangey

    I'd also like to know how one can say "woman love apples" and have it mean "all women love apples" and actually have it be true in the real world.

    This is relevant because the whole tangent of discussion was all about what is true in the real world to begin with, not what's true on paper.

    But anyway, I already hashed this out with The Outsider
    WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FORMAL FIRST ORDER FUCKING LOGIC. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FORMAL FIRST ORDER FUCKING LOGIC. WE WERE TALKING ABOUT FORMAL FIRST ORDER FUCKING LOGIC.

    That's the only reason I responded, because of post #315. See here, ya dingus.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well, in logic the statement "women love apples" would be read as "some women love apples," and the statement "women hate apples" would be read as "some women hate apples." Hate being the opposite of love, you could say hate= not love, so this would translate as "some women love apples" and "some women do not love apples." These statements do not produce a contradiction. If you were to say all women love apples and all women hate apples, this would be read as "For every x that is a woman, it is the case that this x loves apples" combined with "For every x that is a woman it is the case that this x does not love apples." This would be a contradiction.

    Just to nitpick, because I enjoy it.
    Goddamn.

    It was all sorts of wrong and that's how this whole tangent started.
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #359
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Oh, so that's ok to do now? I hadn't heard. :P
    Practically de rigueur, in such cases.

    It is my pleasure to educate you.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  10. #360
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    ZOMG! Orangey is so sexy when she blows a fuse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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