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  1. #311
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    hmmmm. I'm on board with the idea of subjective experience but not subjective truth
    Maybe so. Or it could just be semantic understandings of what truth means. Which is another thing people have many opinions about, and about which whole schools of philosophy are based.

    I myself don't have an absolute definition.

  2. #312
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yeah But I think it's been really interesting. You were very reasonable to talk to. Some people can't help but turn a debate into an argument. But you were great to talk with.
    I'll talk with anyone so long as they don't get all personal about it.

    Also, for an aside, I'm reminded of the Monty Hall problem, where there's three doors and you have to choose one, and there's a goat behind two doors and a car behind the other. After having chosen a door, the host will open another door to reveal a goat, and ask if you want to change doors.

    Probability dictates that you should ALWAYS change doors in this problem, because it doubles your chances of getting the car. Most people absolutely refuse to believe this because it goes against their intuition, but it is true and provable.

    This works because 'Monty' knows what's behind the doors and always reveals one of the goats, so once a door is opened it actually becomes an entirely new problem. If you don't switch, you only keep your original 1/3 odds but if you do switch, you actually have 2/3 odds of getting the car instead of 1/3. It's mathematically true and proven but people will still refuse to believe it even when they are shown exactly why it does work.

  3. #313
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Interesting. I find it easy to believe all sorts of things at the same time, because they are different pieces of reality which may or may not exist on the same continuum. They all fit into my internal framework in one way or another, which depends to a great extent on vagueness and abstractions. I think in order to encompass objective reality in the mental framework of an individual, it has to be somewhat general to include all of the variation and exceptions to rules. You have to just operate on underlying principles. But going back to utilitarian beliefs- I guess they're not so much beliefs as reliable assumptions or experimentally supported hypotheses, as nothing can be known to be absolutely true. And sometimes symbolic modes of thinking, as is the case with mythology.
    I think there is a distinction between believing in multiple things and believing their is a complex truth. For example i cannot believe the statements "women love apples" and "women hate apples" to be true simultaneously. However I can believe that " Women have varying feelings about apples" which takes my experiences of various truths about individual women's' feelings towards apples into an overarching Truth about women and apples.

  4. #314
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I don't think our inability to grasp all of objective reality should be an excuse to fall back into subjective concepts when do know to be false. The concept of utilitarian beliefs strikes me as an oxymoron because I cannot believe something simply because it is useful. It makes sense to use it, but not to believe it if you have evidence to the contrary or it is logical inconsistent.
    Consider the idea that trees have spirits. Can we prove this? No. Can we prove it is not true? No. We would first have to define spirit, then find some way of reliably scientifically measuring it, then have unbiased research on the matter, and then have it published in an unbiased fashion. But I don't need this verification to have it as a utilitarian belief. It produces preferable results for me; so it is a symbolic way of thinking which may not be consistent with absolute objective truth, which I "believe" anyway. I don't assert it as an objective truth, because it is essentially unknowable. But I can operate under the reliable assumption. Maybe the underlying objective principle which is True is that trees and I are made of atoms and their electrons respond to my electrons with the help of protons and neutrons, and that by behaving in a way consistent with this "belief" my energy affects the trees' energy in a way which maximizes health and well being for all.

  5. #315
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think there is a distinction between believing in multiple things and believing their is a complex truth. For example i cannot believe the statements "women love apples" and "women hate apples" to be true simultaneously. However I can believe that " Women have varying feelings about apples" which takes my experiences of various truths about individual women's' feelings towards apples into an overarching Truth about women and apples.
    Well, in logic the statement "women love apples" would be read as "some women love apples," and the statement "women hate apples" would be read as "some women hate apples." Hate being the opposite of love, you could say hate= not love, so this would translate as "some women love apples" and "some women do not love apples." These statements do not produce a contradiction. If you were to say all women love apples and all women hate apples, this would be read as "For every x that is a woman, it is the case that this x loves apples" combined with "For every x that is a woman it is the case that this x does not love apples." This would be a contradiction.

    Just to nitpick, because I enjoy it.

  6. #316
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Yeah But I think it's been really interesting. You were very reasonable to talk to. Some people can't help but turn a debate into an argument. But you were great to talk with.

  7. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Consider the idea that trees have spirits. Can we prove this? No. Can we prove it is not true? No.
    A spirit is conscious. And we know a prefrontal cortex is necessary for consciousness. And we know a tree does not have a prefrontal cortex. So a tree is not conscious. So a tree doesn't have a spirit.

  8. #318
    Blah Orangey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Well, in logic the statement "women love apples" would be read as "some women love apples," and the statement "women hate apples" would be read as "some women hate apples." Hate being the opposite of love, you could say hate= not love, so this would translate as "some women love apples" and "some women do not love apples." These statements do not produce a contradiction. If you were to say all women love apples and all women hate apples, this would be read as "For every x that is a woman, it is the case that this x loves apples" combined with "For every x that is a woman it is the case that this x does not love apples." This would be a contradiction.

    Just to nitpick, because I enjoy it.
    What? Why would "women love apples" be automatically translated to "some women love apples?" The sentence "women love apples" would be translated as "for every x, if x is a woman then x loves apples."
    Artes, Scientia, Veritasiness

  9. #319
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    A spirit is conscious. And we know a prefrontal cortex is necessary for consciousness. And we know a tree does not have a prefrontal cortex. So a tree is not conscious. So a tree doesn't have a spirit.
    Do we know this? How do you define consciousness? Most people's definitions will be a little bit different.

  10. #320
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangey View Post
    What? Why would "women love apples" be automatically translated to "some women love apples?" It implies a universal quantifier, so I don't know why you'd translate it as you did.
    It might imply a universal quantifier, but you can't assume one if it's not there. Context clues require interpretation. That's what it says in my textbook anyway. All we can be truly sure about is that "women love apples" means that at least one woman loves apples.

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