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  1. #201
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    And I'm supposed to determine my type how else?


    I don't really understand this, but to the extent that I do I don't agree. Possible though. I don't see where I've been using Fi. You're welcome to point it out, but I'd prefer if you did it on the thread I started for analyzing my type. Lots of sarcasm and absurdity though.

    Funny, I thought the tribal mentality, which I tend to embrace, is very Fe.


    Maybe so. Interesting point.


    Ok, but my self-actualization isn't relevant to the thread either. Or my internal delusion, except to the extent that it affects my statements, which it doesn't as they don't depend on me being a certain type. I'd almost suspect at this point that you are trying to employ Fe rather than Te, as you are focused on me (the human element) rather than my specific ideas (objective facts or not).

    So that's your counter-argument?

    It could just as easily be Ne (patterns)-Ti (application)-Si (experience)-Fe (social application). Could it not?


    No, embracing the gender binary isn't for everyone. But if you have a gender and you are in a relationship with another gendered person, you will each have individual gender associated differences, which will ideally be in balance with each other. So if you see this as a gender binary, you are participating in it whether you believe in it or not. If you choose to believe it's something else, then your argument is irrelevant.
    What would you say are gender differences beyond physical differences? Are those evident throughout all members of each gender?

  2. #202
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Ok you're right, I should have phrased this better. I mean people have individual strengths and weaknesses, and even just taking into account the strengths, being different it's best for people to complement each other as @sprinkles suggested. Yes, people need to have balance within themselves first. But individual differences exist and are a good thing, and those differences work best in balance. Two balanced individuals in balance with each other is a good thing. Gender has associated differences, which are a good thing; they tend to fit the pattern of yin-yang, and are somewhat correlated with biological sex.
    Um..who says it's "best"? There are a million and one ways to self-actualise, some of them don't even require a partner!

    The reason you're pissing people off is because you're coming across as preachy, and yet you sound really young and, yes, green and so one wonders why it is that you feel qualified to tell others what their "highest calling" should be. I suspect once you've had a bit more life experience, you'll recognise all that is wrong with your proverb, but maybe not, I would hope however, you might be able to express your enthusiasm with more ... discretion.

    I'm going easy on you because I do think you're young and essentially well-intentioned, if misguided, and I don't think you deserve the hammering some people are giving you.

    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Actually I have my own ideas of what INTP is like, and I do think I fit pretty neatly into it, more than any other type. And I have a lot of nice extra things like empathy and passion. I just don't fit neatly into everyone's idea of it.
    Do you know what you just said ? You said "not only am I INTP, I'm better than INTP, because I have things other INTPs lack: passion and empathy". I wouldn't mind, but you say these things with no hint of irony.
    From what I've seen of you, the way you have conducted yourself to date has been rather ignorant and weirdly entitled.
    You should probably think more and post less.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  3. #203
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    I think the idea of gender harmony falls apart when you realize that the members of a gender don't all have the same traits/functions. Let's use MBTI terminology just to have a similar vocabulary. As an INTP woman I don't think I function the same way as an ESFJ female. An INFP man and and an ESTP man have different functions. They way that we all interact with each other will take different forms that cannot be predicted by gender.

    An INFP man would probably be more in touch with the "source" to begin with than me. I feel like this proverb describes a very particular personality combination/dynamic.
    Good points. Thanks.

    Since I like complimentary polarities so much, I took the liberty of exploring the yin-yang dynamic in typology. Here's what I came up with. It's not perfect, just a starting place. (yang= +, yin= -.)
    E + I -
    N + S -
    T + F -
    J + P -

    Ne + Ni -
    Se + Si -
    Te + Ti -
    Fe + Fi -

    Currently I'm playing with it, but it's not working, so I'll have to get back to you on it.

    But anyway, each person is a mix of polarities. And I agree, different types would express them in very different ways, so the proverb would apply to some people this way more than others.

  4. #204
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    What would you say are gender differences beyond physical differences? Are those evident throughout all members of each gender?
    No they're not evident in all members, it's just seeing trends. I use trends to make generalizations. I don't know all of them, I just know they exist. It makes sense. It seems to me that nature would produce such things for a reason. Maybe there aren't that many beyond physical. I like to think there are, because I like celebrating the genders as sacred representations of Spirit. Not for everyone I suppose.

  5. #205
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    And I'm supposed to determine my type how else?
    A starting point would be to differentiate between what you wish and what is. You wish to believe you're a logical dom but you lead with subjective rationale.


    I don't really understand this, but to the extent that I do I don't agree. Possible though. I don't see where I've been using Fi. You're welcome to point it out, but I'd prefer if you did it on the thread I started for analyzing my type. Lots of sarcasm and absurdity though.
    If you don't understand it, how can you disagree? That's irrational.

    Funny, I thought the tribal mentality, which I tend to embrace, is very Fe.
    The feeling function, regardless of attitude, is people oriented.

    Ok, but my self-actualization isn't relevant to the thread either. Or my internal delusion, except to the extent that it affects my statements, which it doesn't as they don't depend on me being a certain type. I'd almost suspect at this point that you are trying to employ Fe rather than Te, as you are focused on me (the human element) rather than my specific ideas (objective facts or not).
    Me? Fe? Ha ha...sure, sure. And pigs fly!

    If you wish to convince others of hypothesis for usage, it has to stand the test of whether or not it has worked for you. In order to understand if it has worked for you, you have to understand and be honest with yourself. Otherwise, you're nothing but a snake oil salesman.

    So that's your counter-argument?
    Just trying to help you out with your first baby step towards any form of self-actualisation.

    It could just as easily be Ne (patterns)-Ti (application)-Si (experience)-Fe (social application). Could it not?
    Nope. Refer to defense of.

    No, embracing the gender binary isn't for everyone. But if you have a gender and you are in a relationship with another gendered person, you will each have individual gender associated differences, which will ideally be in balance with each other. So if you see this as a gender binary, you are participating in it whether you believe in it or not. If you choose to believe it's something else, then your argument is irrelevant.
    Let's consolidate this. Relationships require that partners get along. No need for bullshittery and attempts to wrap things up in fluffy mysticism.

  6. #206
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Good points. Thanks.

    Since I like complimentary polarities so much, I took the liberty of exploring the yin-yang dynamic in typology. Here's what I came up with. It's not perfect, just a starting place. (yang= +, yin= -.)
    E + I -
    N + S -
    T + F -
    J + P -

    Ne + Ni -
    Se + Si -
    Te + Ti -
    Fe + Fi -

    Currently I'm playing with it, but it's not working, so I'll have to get back to you on it.

    But anyway, each person is a mix of polarities. And I agree, different types would express them in very different ways, so the proverb would apply to some people this way more than others.
    I fon't think people are disagreeing with the idea of complimentary personalities working together. They are disagree that every man and every woman have the same function in a complimentary system.
    The problem is that the proverb doesn't refer to "some" men and "some" women. I think that is why people are having a problem with it.

  7. #207
    Senior Member Pseudo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    No they're not evident in all members, it's just seeing trends. I use trends to make generalizations. I don't know all of them, I just know they exist. It makes sense. It seems to me that nature would produce such things for a reason. Maybe there aren't that many beyond physical. I like to think there are, because I like celebrating the genders as sacred representations of Spirit. Not for everyone I suppose.

    Basically you are saying that you know it's untrue but choose to believe it anyway? If something is not true in all cases that means that is is false. For example the statement "all women like pizza" is not true in all cases and is therefor false. Wanting it to be true doesn't seem like a compelling explanation for belief and if you can't identify them how can you defend them?

  8. #208
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Um..who says it's "best"? There are a million and one ways to self-actualise, some of them don't even require a partner!
    I'm not saying there is one right way to be balanced. I'm saying that's what I see in the way the world works. I'm asserting it as a fact not a moral proscription.
    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    The reason you're pissing people off is because you're coming across as preachy, and yet you sound really young and, yes, green and so one wonders why it is that you feel qualified to tell others what their "highest calling" should be. I suspect once you've had a bit more life experience, you'll recognise all that is wrong with your proverb, but maybe not, I would hope however, you might be able to express your enthusiasm with more ... discretion.

    I'm going easy on you because I do think you're young and essentially well-intentioned, if misguided, and I don't think you deserve the hammering some people are giving you.
    I wasn't aware I was preaching anything. I'm just putting my thoughts out there. I'm not saying people should do anything. The point of the OP, as I've said, is just to see what people think and then share what I think. I'm not saying I wholeheartedly agree with it in every way and think everyone should behave accordingly. My own personal attachment ends in thinking it is a nice concept which goes nicely with my spiritual beliefs. Which I'm not pushing on anyone. I'm just defending them from what I see as unfair criticism (i.e. calling them nonsense).

    Is there something I could change in the way I express myself to make this more clear?


    Quote Originally Posted by Salomé View Post
    Do you know what you just said ? You said "not only am I INTP, I'm better than INTP, because I have things other INTPs lack: passion and empathy". I wouldn't mind, but you say these things with no hint of irony.
    From what I've seen of you, the way you have conducted yourself to date has been rather ignorant and weirdly entitled.
    You should probably think more and post less.
    Well...that is essentially what I think. Having extra things is not better, except that I like it better. I like being a well rounded and balanced person. There are some things I don't do so well. I started out with a lot of problems, from different types. And I mostly solved them, by developing associated cognitive functions. There are plenty of other people who are a mix of types with unique strengths and weaknesses, and they can solve their problems and acquire strengths by developing functions. I didn't mean to imply I'm better. I was kind of joking that way and it didn't really translate.

    I know my social skills need a bit of work. I'll continue to be mindful of how I come across, and I appreciate feedback if it's done respectfully.

  9. #209
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pseudo View Post
    Basically you are saying that you know it's untrue but choose to believe it anyway? If something is not true in all cases that means that is is false. For example the statement "all women like pizza" is not true in all cases and is therefor false. Wanting it to be true doesn't seem like a compelling explanation for belief and if you can't identify them how can you defend them?
    I never said anything was true for all members of a group. I think there are biological differences both physical and otherwise, but I can't prove it. So it's a probably not a yes. Based on internal logical reasoning (or so I like to think), without scientific validation handy. Or maybe Ni. I've probably read several things and don't remember what they were or where I found them. Doesn't mean the evidence doesn't exist. I see patterns and trends and make generalizations, then fit those into a framework. The things I say are not meant to be taken to extremes.

  10. #210
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy
    Having extra things is not better
    My point is that you don't have "extra things". You don't even have the basics!

    Allow me to illustrate:
    Post #207 is a good example of INTP posting style.
    Post #203 (amongst others) is a good example of the opposite of INTP posting style.

    Hope this helps.

    (I still don't think it really matters, but seriously, don't tell us how great your Ti is and then come up with this shite, or you'll just be ripped to shreds. It's not that it's impossible for an INFP to have well-developed Ti (see OrangeAppled for a good example) it's just that you're not one of them.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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