• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Role of Religion in Personal Development

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,191
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Reviewing my life, I have become aware of some limitations in the way I have approached my personal growth. Certain approaches seem to have carried me so far, then failed to change things. At that point, other approaches became more effective in both pinpointing problems and improving matters.

Religion (at least conservative religions) generally seem to approach behavior from the lens of "good/bad" or "moral/immoral," and from that assessment then promotes particular behaviors meant to resolve any taint in the individual's moral condition. [prayer, scripture reading and contemplation, meditation, accountability, religious services, group study, etc.]

What are the pro's and con's of this? Is this paradigm always effective or does it have glaring weaknesses? What are your experiences with this approach, what have you seen in your life and/or in the lives of those you know personally?

(If this question is too vague, I can clarify.)
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Of all the religious people I have spoken to (should really say "people with religion" I guess) the ones who seem to have developed are the ones who manage to avoid picking up the dogmatic thinking along the way.

IOW it's been my experience that religion can teach how to develop but it can also be very destructive as it can be interpreted as "as long as you do X you are superior to all who don't" and that's a big platform upon which to build delusion and bad habits.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

Well-known member
Joined
May 11, 2007
Messages
7,263
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w4
Reviewing my life, I have become aware of some limitations in the way I have approached my personal growth. Certain approaches seem to have carried me so far, then failed to change things. At that point, other approaches became more effective in both pinpointing problems and improving matters.

Religion (at least conservative religions) generally seem to approach behavior from the lens of "good/bad" or "moral/immoral," and from that assessment then promotes particular behaviors meant to resolve any taint in the individual's moral condition. [prayer, scripture reading and contemplation, meditation, accountability, religious services, group study, etc.]

What are the pro's and con's of this? Is this paradigm always effective or does it have glaring weaknesses? What are your experiences with this approach, what have you seen in your life and/or in the lives of those you know personally?

(If this question is too vague, I can clarify.)

I try not to accept things based on authority, religious ideology notwithstanding. It's not a secret that I'm interested in Zen Buddhism, but that interest came after I saw how it framed the ideas and experiences I already had. Following religion blindly might help you in some ways, but it might also hurt you in a lot of ways. Most religions, in my view, are codified instructions for perpetuating the religion itself with some payoff (usually delayed) to the practitioner. As far as that goes, its benefit to the practitioner is more a byproduct of practice than the aim. Other religions seem to have a different focus, but I would say the best thing to do is to forget them entirely and examine your own experience, or to read them for ideas and see how those ideas sit with your understanding of nature.

My take on self-help is:

1. Identify the areas that needs help.
2. Identify what causes the problem.
3. Develop and implement solution.

It might be easier to discover the problem if you reflect on the solution. I'm sure there are times you feel total release and total contentment despite having and acknowledging certain problems. I think of that state of mind as watching, letting go, not over-thinking, love, art, etc. It's all the same single experience, and in my view, it comes from honesty and stillness. It's opposite is resistance to experience or pain. So there we have it:

1. Discomfort via pain, worry, frustrations.
2. Resistance to pain.1
3. Honesty, letting go, not over-thinking; surrender.

Dichotomous thinking along the lines of good and bad, in my view, can somewhat contribute to this stillness in that it can start you on the path, i.e., honesty and confrontation and fearlessness are "good" while hiding, fearing, faking, and fighting/resisting are "bad." The limitation, though, is that (1) you're still resisting experience and trying to guide it in some direction, (2) what's "good" and "bad" take a lot of wisdom to decide, and you need to be careful about who's assigning these values and what their agenda is -- is it fear? thirst for power? thirst for pleasure? habit? superstition? (3) you're liable to develop layers of shame for not being "good" which can have adverse effects on your quest for honesty/freedom/development.

I like the way Eastern religions set things up. We don't have good and bad actions, but wholesome and unwholesome. Wholesome actions bring you peace of mind, which unwholesome actions create more karma. Nothing is ever good or bad, and the system recognizes that good and bad are subjective concepts that are projected out onto the environment, not arising in the environment itself. I'm much more comfortable what that scheme.

1 I still think that things like depression and loss cause pain, but there's a place of peace within these experience that probably most of us have experienced when we open up to whatever's going on and stop fighting it. Therefore, discomfort is more the product of resistance than of the experience itself.
 
Last edited:

Owl

desert pelican
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
717
MBTI Type
INTP
Knowledge is communal: it can be shared without loss to the one sharing it--like an STD, only better.

Thus, knowledge of the good life, what the good is and the means to it, can be shared.

Has your conservative religion conserved insight into the good life that it can share? Did it ever have it in the first place?

The pro's of an organization dedicated to creating, sustaining, and maintaining that which is good are too many to list; the con's of an organization not so dedicated are as well.
 

Totenkindly

@.~*virinaĉo*~.@
Joined
Apr 19, 2007
Messages
50,191
MBTI Type
BELF
Enneagram
594
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Most religious organizations (to me) seem to be a mix of good and bad, productive and unproductive... just like families.

(Face it: If it was ALL negative, the organization would collapse via a combination of healthy members leaving and unhealthy members being consumed by the system. edit: i suppose i do also have to consider whether the induction of new members thru conversion or birth to current members can offset the decline.. if it at least matches the decline, even if the system is harmful, the population will stay steady and the organization will endure.)

But one aspect of religious life is that it makes the claim at some level that the ideas it promotes about morality and interaction between people is the "most healthy and best way to live" -- often with the adjunct that other beliefs result in more destructive patterns of behavior. So the religion claims to be the "right one" because it's the "best" in terms of long-term results.

I guess my OP was focused more on the theory behind any particular faith, its paradigm and angle of approach to interaction, etc., rather than the organizational structure per se. If there are inherent flaws in the framework of a system, it doesn't matter what one tries to base on it... the system will forever be flawed, or have a max possible benefit limited by the extent of those flaws.

So are the standard practices usually prescribed by the typical religion -- based on its inherent assumptions of good and evil -- as effective in improving community, improving personal goodness, etc., as the systems it claims to be better than? What other paradigms or ways of approach to human behavior exist besides just framing an action in terms of "good/evil", and are those more or less beneficial in the long run?

(Other frames can include "healthy/unhealthy" or "positive/negative" or "knowledgeable/naive" or whatever you'd like.)
 

anii

homo-loving sonovagun
Joined
Jul 9, 2007
Messages
901
MBTI Type
infp
Enneagram
9
Errk - just my timing for an intriguing question to arise as I'm heading out the door.

Will think on this.

Short answer:

Proscriptive doctrine and compliance via coercion shut down, limit, and constrict one's options, expression, world view.

Presence, numenous moments, inspiration and a sense of oneness expand the breadth and depth of one's options, expression, and world view.
 

nolla

Senor Membrane
Joined
May 22, 2008
Messages
3,166
MBTI Type
INFP
I actually see philosophical views of science to be very enlightening in almost a religious way (thinking Abraham Maslow). Churches have ruined the traditional religions. When you put it in the box, it won't grow. Pro's of traditional religions is that they have (usually) some set of rules that are mostly good ones and necessary in the long run. When governments (and their laws) fall, religions will fill the void. Better than nothing.
 

Owl

desert pelican
Joined
Feb 23, 2008
Messages
717
MBTI Type
INTP
Most religious organizations (to me) seem to be a mix of good and bad, productive and unproductive... just like families.

(Face it: If it was ALL negative, the organization would collapse via a combination of healthy members leaving and unhealthy members being consumed by the system. edit: i suppose i do also have to consider whether the induction of new members thru conversion or birth to current members can offset the decline.. if it at least matches the decline, even if the system is harmful, the population will stay steady and the organization will endure.)

But one aspect of religious life is that it makes the claim at some level that the ideas it promotes about morality and interaction between people is the "most healthy and best way to live" -- often with the adjunct that other beliefs result in more destructive patterns of behavior. So the religion claims to be the "right one" because it's the "best" in terms of long-term results.

I guess my OP was focused more on the theory behind any particular faith, its paradigm and angle of approach to interaction, etc., rather than the organizational structure per se. If there are inherent flaws in the framework of a system, it doesn't matter what one tries to base on it... the system will forever be flawed, or have a max possible benefit limited by the extent of those flaws.

So are the standard practices usually prescribed by the typical religion -- based on its inherent assumptions of good and evil -- as effective in improving community, improving personal goodness, etc., as the systems it claims to be better than? What other paradigms or ways of approach to human behavior exist besides just framing an action in terms of "good/evil", and are those more or less beneficial in the long run?

(Other frames can include "healthy/unhealthy" or "positive/negative" or "knowledgeable/naive" or whatever you'd like.)

You are correct in your assesment of religion as a system.

The nature of the good is based upon the nature of the real. How one conceives of the real will determine how one conceives of the good.

"Good" and "evil" are only symbols that point to the underlying reality. That reality could be health/unhealth, positive/negative, knowledge/ignorace, or pleasure/pain.

What is real, and how do we know?
 

millerm277

New member
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
978
MBTI Type
ISTP
Religion (at least conservative religions) generally seem to approach behavior from the lens of "good/bad" or "moral/immoral," and from that assessment then promotes particular behaviors meant to resolve any taint in the individual's moral condition. [prayer, scripture reading and contemplation, meditation, accountability, religious services, group study, etc.]

What are the pro's and con's of this? Is this paradigm always effective or does it have glaring weaknesses? What are your experiences with this approach, what have you seen in your life and/or in the lives of those you know personally?

On paper, religon seems like a good idea. And, many of the things it teaches (or should teach), are important and valuable lessons. However, in practice...I do find many flaws with it. First off, while teaching good/bad is something important, many seem to get a black/white view out of it, with no room for understanding or a "grey area". Another issue, is that in teaching, the bad is often focused on, rather than the good (much as I am doing in this post). I hear lots of "You can't do this, or you'll go to hell." I may add some more to this later, but I don't have time right now.

I personally was raised Reform Jewish, and while I never believed in it, (Told my parents at 13 or 14), I give it a lot more credit than most other religons I've seen. (Various branches of christianity, conservative/orthodox judiasm). Why? Because rather than treating the bible/torah as rules that you should always adhere to, they more emphasized the lessons to be learned and morals, instead of "You must obey these rules", and they were open to discussion and interpretation. I'm somewhere between Atheist and Agnostic.
 

spartan26

New member
Joined
Apr 29, 2007
Messages
189
MBTI Type
INTP
I think there's been a lot of balancing and correcting over the years as far as my walk w/Christ has gone. There are a lot of styles and people and principals in the Bible one can identify with, so it's no wonder you have some fire & brimstone types, some touchy feely types, some big money raisers and some empty themselves out to total poverty.

During my formative years, religion primarily served as the basis for my morality. I wasn't perfect but it kept me from becoming an addict or knocking some classmate up at 16. I didn't really start to develop a spiritual side until my mid to late 20's. I prolly did more works then and into my 30's. As a 9w1, it would be easy for me to neglect myself, so to speak, at the behalf of assisting others. I never was unhealthy in levels nor codependent, so it was hard to notice.

I think there was some restriction on my personal development. I was doing a lot and staying active but it wasn't until I had a "pruning" that I have sort of a paradigm shift as far as viewing my roll in the church and getting a better understanding of the nature of God. Mainly that I couldn't, nor was supposed to, completely wrap my head around Him.

In kind of this life long restriction, at some times I'd feel angry about sorta being held back in life. I was, however, able to develop some mad discipline skillz. In just the past year I've been able to ask God for stuff for myself. Stuff should prolly be in quotes. I've done that before for my needs like car, job, place to live and have petitioned in prayer for wisdom and opportunity but the results I would've expected or would've accepted would have been more serendipitous. Almost like 'if it didn't fall in my lap, I wasn't meant to have it.' And believe me when I say a car, jobs and money have fallen out of the sky for me.

I've kinda lost some unwarranted guilt and fears of being perceived as selfish over the years. Now, I'd like to do more big picture stuff as opposed to one-on-one stuff. There's a lot of empowering theology being peddled now. It's something I've either avoided or just kinda thought whatever about. Unfortunately, it often translates into the gospel of wealth with so many people, particularly in America wanting more, More, MORE!! that they really miss the point.

As an INTP, having a desire to observe and take in and of course have my personal peace & space, I prolly have been more timid in life than I now wish I had been. Like I was never really afraid of say failure or rejection but kinda felt that I needed that green light from God telling me it's OK to go ahead. Of course the validating verses for exploration have always been there. I find myself at times being almost resentful for not having these truths or an expanded perspective on life and Christianity revealed to me earlier. So often in my head I'll think of mistakes or missed opportunities. Part of growth is realizing I can and should just cut that thinking out.

There's still also realization that trust and faith in God is all encompassing. Like I had no doubt God would heal my mother when she was deathly ill but some days I'm at work, stuck in my cube feeling like everyone thinks I'm an idiot and should be scribbling w/crayons and feeling old and gray and wondering how miserable is my life gonna be 5-10 years from now and what can I do, no one's gonna listen to me, and then I have to look back and reflect on the trials already overcome. God hooked me up in the past because I believed; He'll do it again. My biggest part of maturity, of late, is not getting caught up in the circumstances but staying focused on what I can do. I feel much better. I don't need as many good or happy things to happen to feel good or hopeful. As soon as I say, "it's all good, baby, you're still in the game" then I notice the timing of good things happening after I was able to let go.

So I guess ultimately I have to believe that my shortsightedness or lack of understanding or even religious programming as to what I felt I should've been that sometimes may've led me into secluded areas and limited my thinking have had their benefits in developing me and expanding the possibilities for my future. How often I'll think of a verse like Romans 8:28 applies more for dudes in prison or someone who's maimed someone in a DUI, but I think it's in the broken dreams of everyday life as well.
 

gokartride

New member
Joined
Jul 6, 2008
Messages
100
MBTI Type
INFJ
Religion is a difficult thing to sort through I think, especially nowadays given the way many religions are constructed. It is possible, however, to embark on a process of discovery to go back to fundamental sources of religious thought...I suspect this can be done in any religion. In this way I believe one can peel back layers of culture that relate to religion, but may also cloud the essentials that are happening at the source....much like a spring from which a river flows. In this regard, I suggest that in most cases one must go backward to revisit the sources.

Okay, that said, in my own tradition, personal development is linked with the concept of conversion...conversion of heart, conversion of mind, conversion of life...whatever. That equates to personal development, I suppose, but it is also about constant internal creation and dynamic movement within the spiritual life. I will say that sometimes conversion can seem like death, especially if we are faced with letting go of illusions about things....even our religious concepts should they be too limited (and they almost always are)!!

Add to this the fact that (in my tradition anyway), the ultimate goal is not necessarily a specific code of behavior or morality which we might equate with development...it is all about connection. I truly believe (and observe) that often we do not wind up attaining or posessing any outrageous degree of higher development ourselves....it is more that we become connected to the ultimate Good, and that is what changes us somehow.

Religion is a powerful good in our world, but is so poorly understood that it is nearly buried. Truly, some stuff should remain buried....but within it lies that spring of fresh water that can truly sustain the human person.
 
Top