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Personality Disorders: Moral or Medical?

Mole

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I'd like to also add that people with Personalty Disorders can be treated, and if motivated, can alter their behavior. (The "if motivated" is the hook, of course. Someone working with a personality disordered person has to find it and emphasize it.)

Antisocial Personality Disorder? Who do you think our high profile police, politicians, emergency room personnel, ministers, doctors, war heroes are? Many are flip sides of the coin. They have their place in society as does everyone, I think. They tolerate high levels of stress, aren't bothered by difficult decisions, prefer leadership roles and have a rapid recovery rate from situations which would crush a sensitive.

The ones who don't hold the line are the ones we read scary stories about in the newspaper. But all around us people with Personality Disorders are making their lives work. And struggling much more than we can know.

Short of uncontrollable psychosis anyone can learn to build on their strengths, minimize their weaknesses and live a healthy, productive life. But it isn't an easy thing to accomplish and may take years and a lot of help.

I find this hard to believe.

In fact all Personality Disorders are psychoses.

And those with Personality Disorders have failed lives.

There are a tiny number of psychiatrists who say they can successfully treat Personality Disorders, but almost all psychiatrists say Personality Disorders are untreatable.

It is true though that those with personality types such as narcissistic personality and psychopathic personality are usually quite successful in life. In fact both these personality types are well represented in CEOs.

I don't think it does anyone a service to keep on confusing personality types with Personality Disorders.
 

Anja

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My statements stand, Victor, and I'll accept your opinion.
 

ThatsWhatHeSaid

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There are a tiny number of psychiatrists who say they can successfully treat Personality Disorders, but almost all psychiatrists say Personality Disorders are untreatable.

?

I've never ever heard such a thing, but instead seen tons of literature on treating personality disorders. Do you mean treating personality disorders through medication? (hence your reference to psychiatrists)
 

Anja

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Apparently Victor is not going to return to defend his position.

So I'll comment further in a perhaps more critical viewpoint toward the Medical/Moral dilemma.

The medical model posits that whatever isn't the norm is disease. Some agree. Others don't.

If we take the medical approach then, as an earlier poster acknowledged, morality has little value in correcting the problem. That doesn't mean that the practitioner doesn't have a moral obligation to the patient. That doesn't mean the patient doesn't have moral obligations/expectations to address in pursuing wellness. But those vital qualities needn't confuse the basic facts of diagnosis and treatment.

From my point of view it doesn't contribute to wellness to assign a moral value to a disease and may, in fact, complicate the healing process for both the healer and the healing.

Applying moral values in the non-genetic acquiring of disease is worth acknowledging but is, in general, after-the fact realization and valuable if the purpose is used for maintenance of health and prevention.

My opinion is that the conscientious healer works, and probably continuously and dilligently, to prevent value judgements from clouding his purpose. And of course, this will be a nearly insurmountable goal but one important to attempt.

My thought is that healing from nearly any malady does involve morality because I believe that disease is a spiritual dis-ease, among other things, but probably prominently. But it truly is a very personal issue and best worked on in private and not forced upon those deciding to recover.
 

Anja

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Bottom line, then, to me is it doesn't matter what model one prefers. Something is "out of whack" and the mutual goal of a healer and a patient together is to make it "whacky" again. :cheese:
 

Mole

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Doonesbury

Apparently Victor is not going to return to defend his position.

What! What! What? - I was asleep - but I come out of my corner waving my fists in the air.

But be not afraid, I haven't had my coffee yet. So I must ask you to postpone this round until I have walked up to the Bakery, and until I have had my coffee and read the, "Australian", newspaper.

And of course the most important part of the newspaper is the comics, particularly, "Doonsbury".

Not so much a comic as a guide to life.

And after I have taken advice from Doonesbury, I shall return to the fray.
 

heart

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?

I've never ever heard such a thing, but instead seen tons of literature on treating personality disorders. Do you mean treating personality disorders through medication? (hence your reference to psychiatrists)

For the psychopath, without empathy, where is the impetus to seek or follow treatment going to come from? Our society glorifies the psychopath if he can learn to work within the framework of the law. When a person cannot be reached by empathy, how can they be reached?


PSYCHOPATHS AMONG US

Dr. Robert Hare claims there are 300,000 psychopaths in Canada, but that only a tiny fraction are violent offenders like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen. Who are the rest? Take a look around

By Robert Hercz (article at link)
 

ygolo

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I read through the whole article, it certainly was intersting. But I wouldn't really be looking around labeling people as psychopaths, because I am not qualified to do so.

But away from the workplace, back in the world of the criminally violent psychopath, Hare's checklist has become broadly known, so broadly known, in fact, that it is now a constant source of concern for him. "People are misusing it, and they're misusing it in really strange ways," Hare says. "There are lots of clinicians who don't even have a manual. All they've seen is an article with the twenty items -- promiscuity, impulsiveness, and so forth -- listed."

In court, assessments of the same person done by defence and prosecution "experts" have varied by as much as twenty points. Such drastic differences are almost certainly the result of bias or incompetence, since research on the PCL-R itself has shown it has high "inter-rater reliability" (consistent results when a subject is assessed by more than one qualified assessor). In one court case, it was used to label a thirteen-year-old a psychopath, even though the PCL-R test is only meant to be used to rate adults with criminal histories. The test should be administered only by mental-health professionals (like all such psychological instruments, it is only for sale to those with credentials), but a social worker once used the PCL-R in testimony in a death-penalty case -- not because she was qualified but because she thought it was "interesting."

It shouldn't be used in death-penalty cases at all, Hare says, but U.S. Federal District Courts have ruled it admissible because it meets scientific standards.

I believe a lot of psychometrics suffer from this same issues. I wonder if at one time if trained assesors using the MBTI were able to get reliable results as well. Even simple multimeters can be used the wrong way.

As for psycopaths, I knew several people in high-school, who had many of the same characteristics mentioned, but of-course, the PCL-R is meant for adults only.

I also find it funny that the DSM when applied in different coutries yeids such different results among practicing clinicians.
 

Anja

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You raise the million dollar question, heart.

Perhaps you've already had discussions about the definition of psychopath/sociopath. Some maintain that it is a matter of degree. That all psychopaths have Anti-Social Personality Disorder but not all people with ASPD are necessarily psychopaths. It's difficult to discuss when it is not clearly defined.

But it has been said that people with ASPD can experience a phenomenon known as "burn-out" some time in middle age. I'm not sure how that is defined without refreshing my memory but I suppose it would consist of finally beginning to understand cause and effect in regards to their behavior.

This appears to be true from my limited observations. (Maybe everybody goes through something similar in middle age!)

I suppose, after leaving a trail of damage in their wake, if they survive their self-destructive tendencies it becomes a motivator to have a semblance of normalcy in their lives. So. Time as a factor?

And a comment regarding the MMPI, ygolo. A clinical social worker once told me that many teens test positive for schizophrenia. And why not?

I won't even introduce the possible differences between males and females.

Edit: Drifting from the OP?
 
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Mole

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But it has been said that people with ASPD can experience a phenomenon known as "burn-out" some time in middle age.

Yes, Mike Doonesbury advises me that those with a Personality Disorder lead disordered iives - that is, they lead unsuccessful lives.

That is, they suffer during their lives but as they grow older, they suffer even more, quite a bit more.

And although most of us loose things as we get older, it is more than compensated by what we gain. And most are happiest as they pass middle age.

But those with a Personality Disorder do not seem to make these gains. In other words, they don't seem to be able to mature. And so their old age is somewhat hellish.
 

Eldanen

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DSM-IV is created by psychiatrists, not psychologists. Check out the Youtube channel psychetruth ;).
 

Anja

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Nice save, Victor.

Please tell Mr. Doonesbury that he is talking about untreated folks.

I have known several. And just to be fair I have known them to have a glitch in their recoveries a time or two.

Like my friend, a city councilman and a well-respected businessman who lost his grip for a second during a council meeting.

Geez, everybody has a slip now and then. His was getting up and punching the mayor in the mouth!

(Other than that he was a pretty neat guy.)
 

Anja

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Still pondering.

Actually the term "burnout" is used in a positive manner in that they lose some of their drive. It's that self-centered drive that pushes them, and probably all of us, to pursue objectives with little consideration for others.

And it is that relaxing of our driveness that helps to mellow us all out in age. Some people think it's wisdom. I heard somebody on another forum call it "fatigue." Good one. Probably both.

So, the "What's-in-it-for-me?" approach to motivating a sociopath to change is a valuable one.

If you think of it in these terms it is easier to believe that anyone is able to make changes in their approach to life:

We, peope without uncontrolled psychosis, don't have control over our emotions but we do have the ability to choose how we act upon them. For even "normies" that is a lesson which takes emphasis, guidance and practice.

For a sociopath, for example, it simply takes more and longer.

Heh. I'd add INFPs into that category as well.

As in all human group differences it is usual to focus on the negative and consider ourselves not of that particular group.

But, in general - NOT!
 

Anja

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Again, I have steered away from the OP. Perhaps some guidance from our original poster?
 

Mole

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Piety

Still pondering.

Actually the term "burnout" is used in a positive manner in that they lose some of their drive. It's that self-centered drive that pushes them, and probably all of us, to pursue objectives with little consideration for others.

And it is that relaxing of our driveness that helps to mellow us all out in age. Some people think it's wisdom. I heard somebody on another forum call it "fatigue." Good one. Probably both.

So, the "What's-in-it-for-me?" approach to motivating a sociopath to change is a valuable one.

If you think of it in these terms it is easier to believe that anyone is able to make changes in their approach to life:

We, peope without uncontrolled psychosis, don't have control over our emotions but we do have the ability to choose how we act upon them. For even "normies" that is a lesson which takes emphasis, guidance and practice.

For a sociopath, for example, it simply takes more and longer.

Heh. I'd add INFPs into that category as well.

As in all human group differences it is usual to focus on the negative and consider ourselves not of that particular group.

But, in general - NOT!

It is a popular and easy opinion that we are all the same. And that mental illness such as Personality Disorders are a matter of degree.

This is partially true as we all fall under the Bell curve.

However Personality Disorders are right up the end of the Bell curve, so they are in very tiny numbers.

This also means that Personality Disorder is not shared by most of the population.

So to say Personality Disorder is a matter of degree is no more than a pious genuflection to the conventional wisdom.
 

Anja

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That's where your thinking function takes the upper hand, I'm afraid.

Let me try.

Don't you think it's more comforting to assign the label "other," or in this discussion, "immoral" and then be relieved that there is none within us to be observed there?

It thwarts the healing process from my perspective. It is a rare patient who can accept direction in a clinical setting if they perceive their helper to be removed from their experience.

And in honest self-evaluation most of us would reluctantly admit that we have been greedy at the expense of others.

Recognizing sameness while pointing the direction to diferrence seems a therapeutic necessity.

For instance: "Oh yeah. I saw that money laying there and wanted to take it too. But then I remembered that if I did it could cause problems for me."

In the real world I'll be in the trenches taking abuse from wife-beaters and saying stuff like, "Yeah. I sometimes want to smash my husband's head in too." while you're upstairs cooking the figures. . . Hee.

Maybe thinkers are wiser after all!
 

Mole

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That's where your thinking function takes the upper hand, I'm afraid.

Let me try.

Don't you think it's more comforting to assign the label "other," or in this discussion, "immoral" and then be relieved that there is none within us to be observed there?

It thwarts the healing process from my perspective. It is a rare patient who can accept direction in a clinical setting if they perceive their helper to be removed from their experience.

And in honest self-evaluation most of us would reluctantly admit that we have been greedy at the expense of others.

Recognizing sameness while pointing the direction to diferrence seems a therapeutic necessity.

For instance: "Oh yeah. I saw that money laying there and wanted to take it too. But then I remembered that if I did it could cause problems for me."

In the real world I'll be in the trenches taking abuse from wife-beaters and saying stuff like, "Yeah. I sometimes want to smash my husband's head in too." while you're upstairs cooking the figures. . . Hee.

Maybe thinkers are wiser after all!

It is true that rapport is necessary for therapy.

And while sympathy means feeling the same as, empathy means feeling with.

So you can empathise with your patient while not feeling the same. This is uniquely helpful.

And empathy, not sympathy, forms the heart of rapport.

And the heart of therapy.

And I am sure you are wrong about thinkers - as feelers are wiser after all.
 

Anja

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I'm afraid this is a semantical argument and not within the scope of the OP.

Not much to say about the obvious difference between sympathy and empathy.
 
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