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  1. #31
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    You raise the million dollar question, heart.

    Perhaps you've already had discussions about the definition of psychopath/sociopath. Some maintain that it is a matter of degree. That all psychopaths have Anti-Social Personality Disorder but not all people with ASPD are necessarily psychopaths. It's difficult to discuss when it is not clearly defined.

    But it has been said that people with ASPD can experience a phenomenon known as "burn-out" some time in middle age. I'm not sure how that is defined without refreshing my memory but I suppose it would consist of finally beginning to understand cause and effect in regards to their behavior.

    This appears to be true from my limited observations. (Maybe everybody goes through something similar in middle age!)

    I suppose, after leaving a trail of damage in their wake, if they survive their self-destructive tendencies it becomes a motivator to have a semblance of normalcy in their lives. So. Time as a factor?

    And a comment regarding the MMPI, ygolo. A clinical social worker once told me that many teens test positive for schizophrenia. And why not?

    I won't even introduce the possible differences between males and females.

    Edit: Drifting from the OP?
    Last edited by Anja; 08-22-2008 at 12:52 AM. Reason: Redirection
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    But it has been said that people with ASPD can experience a phenomenon known as "burn-out" some time in middle age.
    Yes, Mike Doonesbury advises me that those with a Personality Disorder lead disordered iives - that is, they lead unsuccessful lives.

    That is, they suffer during their lives but as they grow older, they suffer even more, quite a bit more.

    And although most of us loose things as we get older, it is more than compensated by what we gain. And most are happiest as they pass middle age.

    But those with a Personality Disorder do not seem to make these gains. In other words, they don't seem to be able to mature. And so their old age is somewhat hellish.

  3. #33
    Arcesso pulli gingerios! Eldanen's Avatar
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    DSM-IV is created by psychiatrists, not psychologists. Check out the Youtube channel psychetruth .

  4. #34
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Nice save, Victor.

    Please tell Mr. Doonesbury that he is talking about untreated folks.

    I have known several. And just to be fair I have known them to have a glitch in their recoveries a time or two.

    Like my friend, a city councilman and a well-respected businessman who lost his grip for a second during a council meeting.

    Geez, everybody has a slip now and then. His was getting up and punching the mayor in the mouth!

    (Other than that he was a pretty neat guy.)
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #35
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Still pondering.

    Actually the term "burnout" is used in a positive manner in that they lose some of their drive. It's that self-centered drive that pushes them, and probably all of us, to pursue objectives with little consideration for others.

    And it is that relaxing of our driveness that helps to mellow us all out in age. Some people think it's wisdom. I heard somebody on another forum call it "fatigue." Good one. Probably both.

    So, the "What's-in-it-for-me?" approach to motivating a sociopath to change is a valuable one.

    If you think of it in these terms it is easier to believe that anyone is able to make changes in their approach to life:

    We, peope without uncontrolled psychosis, don't have control over our emotions but we do have the ability to choose how we act upon them. For even "normies" that is a lesson which takes emphasis, guidance and practice.

    For a sociopath, for example, it simply takes more and longer.

    Heh. I'd add INFPs into that category as well.

    As in all human group differences it is usual to focus on the negative and consider ourselves not of that particular group.

    But, in general - NOT!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #36
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Again, I have steered away from the OP. Perhaps some guidance from our original poster?
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Still pondering.

    Actually the term "burnout" is used in a positive manner in that they lose some of their drive. It's that self-centered drive that pushes them, and probably all of us, to pursue objectives with little consideration for others.

    And it is that relaxing of our driveness that helps to mellow us all out in age. Some people think it's wisdom. I heard somebody on another forum call it "fatigue." Good one. Probably both.

    So, the "What's-in-it-for-me?" approach to motivating a sociopath to change is a valuable one.

    If you think of it in these terms it is easier to believe that anyone is able to make changes in their approach to life:

    We, peope without uncontrolled psychosis, don't have control over our emotions but we do have the ability to choose how we act upon them. For even "normies" that is a lesson which takes emphasis, guidance and practice.

    For a sociopath, for example, it simply takes more and longer.

    Heh. I'd add INFPs into that category as well.

    As in all human group differences it is usual to focus on the negative and consider ourselves not of that particular group.

    But, in general - NOT!
    It is a popular and easy opinion that we are all the same. And that mental illness such as Personality Disorders are a matter of degree.

    This is partially true as we all fall under the Bell curve.

    However Personality Disorders are right up the end of the Bell curve, so they are in very tiny numbers.

    This also means that Personality Disorder is not shared by most of the population.

    So to say Personality Disorder is a matter of degree is no more than a pious genuflection to the conventional wisdom.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    That's where your thinking function takes the upper hand, I'm afraid.

    Let me try.

    Don't you think it's more comforting to assign the label "other," or in this discussion, "immoral" and then be relieved that there is none within us to be observed there?

    It thwarts the healing process from my perspective. It is a rare patient who can accept direction in a clinical setting if they perceive their helper to be removed from their experience.

    And in honest self-evaluation most of us would reluctantly admit that we have been greedy at the expense of others.

    Recognizing sameness while pointing the direction to diferrence seems a therapeutic necessity.

    For instance: "Oh yeah. I saw that money laying there and wanted to take it too. But then I remembered that if I did it could cause problems for me."

    In the real world I'll be in the trenches taking abuse from wife-beaters and saying stuff like, "Yeah. I sometimes want to smash my husband's head in too." while you're upstairs cooking the figures. . . Hee.

    Maybe thinkers are wiser after all!
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    That's where your thinking function takes the upper hand, I'm afraid.

    Let me try.

    Don't you think it's more comforting to assign the label "other," or in this discussion, "immoral" and then be relieved that there is none within us to be observed there?

    It thwarts the healing process from my perspective. It is a rare patient who can accept direction in a clinical setting if they perceive their helper to be removed from their experience.

    And in honest self-evaluation most of us would reluctantly admit that we have been greedy at the expense of others.

    Recognizing sameness while pointing the direction to diferrence seems a therapeutic necessity.

    For instance: "Oh yeah. I saw that money laying there and wanted to take it too. But then I remembered that if I did it could cause problems for me."

    In the real world I'll be in the trenches taking abuse from wife-beaters and saying stuff like, "Yeah. I sometimes want to smash my husband's head in too." while you're upstairs cooking the figures. . . Hee.

    Maybe thinkers are wiser after all!
    It is true that rapport is necessary for therapy.

    And while sympathy means feeling the same as, empathy means feeling with.

    So you can empathise with your patient while not feeling the same. This is uniquely helpful.

    And empathy, not sympathy, forms the heart of rapport.

    And the heart of therapy.

    And I am sure you are wrong about thinkers - as feelers are wiser after all.

  10. #40
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I'm afraid this is a semantical argument and not within the scope of the OP.

    Not much to say about the obvious difference between sympathy and empathy.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

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