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  1. #21
    & Badger, Ratty and Toad Mole's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    I'd like to also add that people with Personalty Disorders can be treated, and if motivated, can alter their behavior. (The "if motivated" is the hook, of course. Someone working with a personality disordered person has to find it and emphasize it.)

    Antisocial Personality Disorder? Who do you think our high profile police, politicians, emergency room personnel, ministers, doctors, war heroes are? Many are flip sides of the coin. They have their place in society as does everyone, I think. They tolerate high levels of stress, aren't bothered by difficult decisions, prefer leadership roles and have a rapid recovery rate from situations which would crush a sensitive.

    The ones who don't hold the line are the ones we read scary stories about in the newspaper. But all around us people with Personality Disorders are making their lives work. And struggling much more than we can know.

    Short of uncontrollable psychosis anyone can learn to build on their strengths, minimize their weaknesses and live a healthy, productive life. But it isn't an easy thing to accomplish and may take years and a lot of help.
    I find this hard to believe.

    In fact all Personality Disorders are psychoses.

    And those with Personality Disorders have failed lives.

    There are a tiny number of psychiatrists who say they can successfully treat Personality Disorders, but almost all psychiatrists say Personality Disorders are untreatable.

    It is true though that those with personality types such as narcissistic personality and psychopathic personality are usually quite successful in life. In fact both these personality types are well represented in CEOs.

    I don't think it does anyone a service to keep on confusing personality types with Personality Disorders.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    My statements stand, Victor, and I'll accept your opinion.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  3. #23
    Senior Member ThatsWhatHeSaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victor View Post
    There are a tiny number of psychiatrists who say they can successfully treat Personality Disorders, but almost all psychiatrists say Personality Disorders are untreatable.
    ?

    I've never ever heard such a thing, but instead seen tons of literature on treating personality disorders. Do you mean treating personality disorders through medication? (hence your reference to psychiatrists)

  4. #24
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Apparently Victor is not going to return to defend his position.

    So I'll comment further in a perhaps more critical viewpoint toward the Medical/Moral dilemma.

    The medical model posits that whatever isn't the norm is disease. Some agree. Others don't.

    If we take the medical approach then, as an earlier poster acknowledged, morality has little value in correcting the problem. That doesn't mean that the practitioner doesn't have a moral obligation to the patient. That doesn't mean the patient doesn't have moral obligations/expectations to address in pursuing wellness. But those vital qualities needn't confuse the basic facts of diagnosis and treatment.

    From my point of view it doesn't contribute to wellness to assign a moral value to a disease and may, in fact, complicate the healing process for both the healer and the healing.

    Applying moral values in the non-genetic acquiring of disease is worth acknowledging but is, in general, after-the fact realization and valuable if the purpose is used for maintenance of health and prevention.

    My opinion is that the conscientious healer works, and probably continuously and dilligently, to prevent value judgements from clouding his purpose. And of course, this will be a nearly insurmountable goal but one important to attempt.

    My thought is that healing from nearly any malady does involve morality because I believe that disease is a spiritual dis-ease, among other things, but probably prominently. But it truly is a very personal issue and best worked on in private and not forced upon those deciding to recover.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  5. #25
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    Bottom line, then, to me is it doesn't matter what model one prefers. Something is "out of whack" and the mutual goal of a healer and a patient together is to make it "whacky" again.
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  6. #26
    Order Now! pure_mercury's Avatar
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    I score higher than average in tests for more than one of those disorders.
    Who wants to try a bottle of merc's "Extroversion Olive Oil?"

  7. #27
    Senior Member Anja's Avatar
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    I thought you were looking a little peaked, pure. . .
    "No ray of sunshine is ever lost, but the green which it awakes into existence needs time to sprout, and it is not always granted to the sower to see the harvest. All work that is worth anything is done in faith." - Albert Schweitzer

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anja View Post
    Apparently Victor is not going to return to defend his position.
    What! What! What? - I was asleep - but I come out of my corner waving my fists in the air.

    But be not afraid, I haven't had my coffee yet. So I must ask you to postpone this round until I have walked up to the Bakery, and until I have had my coffee and read the, "Australian", newspaper.

    And of course the most important part of the newspaper is the comics, particularly, "Doonsbury".

    Not so much a comic as a guide to life.

    And after I have taken advice from Doonesbury, I shall return to the fray.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThatsWhatHeSaid View Post
    ?

    I've never ever heard such a thing, but instead seen tons of literature on treating personality disorders. Do you mean treating personality disorders through medication? (hence your reference to psychiatrists)
    For the psychopath, without empathy, where is the impetus to seek or follow treatment going to come from? Our society glorifies the psychopath if he can learn to work within the framework of the law. When a person cannot be reached by empathy, how can they be reached?


    PSYCHOPATHS AMONG US

    Dr. Robert Hare claims there are 300,000 psychopaths in Canada, but that only a tiny fraction are violent offenders like Paul Bernardo and Clifford Olsen. Who are the rest? Take a look around

    By Robert Hercz (article at link)

  10. #30

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    I read through the whole article, it certainly was intersting. But I wouldn't really be looking around labeling people as psychopaths, because I am not qualified to do so.

    But away from the workplace, back in the world of the criminally violent psychopath, Hare's checklist has become broadly known, so broadly known, in fact, that it is now a constant source of concern for him. "People are misusing it, and they're misusing it in really strange ways," Hare says. "There are lots of clinicians who don't even have a manual. All they've seen is an article with the twenty items -- promiscuity, impulsiveness, and so forth -- listed."

    In court, assessments of the same person done by defence and prosecution "experts" have varied by as much as twenty points. Such drastic differences are almost certainly the result of bias or incompetence, since research on the PCL-R itself has shown it has high "inter-rater reliability" (consistent results when a subject is assessed by more than one qualified assessor). In one court case, it was used to label a thirteen-year-old a psychopath, even though the PCL-R test is only meant to be used to rate adults with criminal histories. The test should be administered only by mental-health professionals (like all such psychological instruments, it is only for sale to those with credentials), but a social worker once used the PCL-R in testimony in a death-penalty case -- not because she was qualified but because she thought it was "interesting."

    It shouldn't be used in death-penalty cases at all, Hare says, but U.S. Federal District Courts have ruled it admissible because it meets scientific standards.
    I believe a lot of psychometrics suffer from this same issues. I wonder if at one time if trained assesors using the MBTI were able to get reliable results as well. Even simple multimeters can be used the wrong way.

    As for psycopaths, I knew several people in high-school, who had many of the same characteristics mentioned, but of-course, the PCL-R is meant for adults only.

    I also find it funny that the DSM when applied in different coutries yeids such different results among practicing clinicians.

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