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  1. #11
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lark View Post
    That's a lot of conclusions contingent upon don Juan having existed which I dont think are necessarily so, Osama really existed, it doesnt make his message about the Koran, Islam or the world is any the more valid than otherwise would be the case.
    I am often accused of believing in the things I talk about.

    I guess you missed the part about validating feelings. I wasn't making a case for its objective reality. I'm trying to empathize with the hippies, as I myself enjoyed reading those books back in the day so that gives me a basis for empathy.

    But the purpose of this thread is to ask why anybody would still believe those books. If they are recommended reading in anthropology departments, then that's a real travesty on science.

    "I ran across a guy on some other forum who thinks Castaneda's Don Juan sorcery books are reports of true events.

    It takes all kinds, I guess."
    Last edited by Mal12345; 08-11-2012 at 07:32 PM. Reason: because of people who drop the context of my statements
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  2. #12
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    We don't want to go around affirming the consequent, though.

    It's possible to be right but for all the wrong reasons. Even if this guy was fake and wrong, that doesn't mean that the basic premise that you put forth above was fake and wrong.

    It's kinda like justifying the tooth fairy to prove that the quarter under your pillow is real. The quarter being real isn't really the problem, it's there. Making convoluted stories to prove something doesn't help.
    That sounds like a variation on the "even if don Juan isn't real, he ought to be real" argument.

    Yes, you can believe something without considering it real when it represents an idea or system of ideas.

    However, when you detract from the reality of something, it really takes the wind out of their sails. Like saying there's no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. If the crucifixion didn't happen, then Christianity is dead as a religion. Yes, it is that important. It's not just the Sermon on the Mount, it has to be all or nothing. Don Juan may not be Jesus, but the reality of the character is just as important to the believers as his ideas.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  3. #13
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That sounds like a variation on the "even if don Juan isn't real, he ought to be real" argument.

    Yes, you can believe something without considering it real when it represents an idea or system of ideas.

    However, when you detract from the reality of something, it really takes the wind out of their sails. Like saying there's no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. If the crucifixion didn't happen, then Christianity is dead as a religion. Yes, it is that important. It's not just the Sermon on the Mount, it has to be all or nothing. Don Juan may not be Jesus, but the reality of the character is just as important to the believers as his ideas.
    Nah. I'm just saying that the prospect of being able to drop into another dimension with the assistance of substances has nothing to do with Don Juan. His reality or lack thereof does nothing to prove or disprove this question.

    The Jesus example isn't quite the same thing. If we disproved the Crucifixion then we show that some supposed facts were mistaken, and it does mean the religion got stuff wrong, but that doesn't disprove other independent questions such as whether he even existed or whether or not he healed people. It depends on what you're looking for.

  4. #14
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That sounds like a variation on the "even if don Juan isn't real, he ought to be real" argument.

    Yes, you can believe something without considering it real when it represents an idea or system of ideas.

    However, when you detract from the reality of something, it really takes the wind out of their sails. Like saying there's no historical evidence for the existence of Jesus. If the crucifixion didn't happen, then Christianity is dead as a religion. Yes, it is that important. It's not just the Sermon on the Mount, it has to be all or nothing. Don Juan may not be Jesus, but the reality of the character is just as important to the believers as his ideas.
    I'm pretty sure Castaneda and just Shamanism in general are more concerned about the idea or system of ideas and even more nebulous stuff than actual historical reality.

    Even in Christianity, there are plenty of non fundamental sects that consider the historicity of the Bible as immaterial.

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Nah. I'm just saying that the prospect of being able to drop into another dimension with the assistance of substances has nothing to do with Don Juan. His reality or lack thereof does nothing to prove or disprove this question.

    The Jesus example isn't quite the same thing. If we disproved the Crucifixion then we show that some supposed facts were mistaken, and it does mean the religion got stuff wrong, but that doesn't disprove other independent questions such as whether he even existed or whether or not he healed people. It depends on what you're looking for.
    That's completely wrong, but I don't have time to explain to you why.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  6. #16
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    I'm pretty sure Castaneda and just Shamanism in general are more concerned about the idea or system of ideas and even more nebulous stuff than actual historical reality.

    Even in Christianity, there are plenty of non fundamental sects that consider the historicity of the Bible as immaterial.
    That is one reason why they are called "sects."
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  7. #17
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That is one reason why they are called "sects."
    They're all sects. Unless, you want to clear this out and point to which is the authorative Christianity, I assume it'll be whatever agrees with your thought in the matter. Anyway, sticking to Shamanism, historicity and factuality is definitely demoted to the mystical experience.. hell, even writing about a faux mystical experience is acceptible if it has a type of metaphysical truth to it.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Qlip View Post
    They're all sects. Unless, you want to clear this out and point to which is the authorative Christianity, I assume it'll be whatever agrees with your thought in the matter. Anyway, sticking to Shamanism, historicity and factuality is definitely demoted to the mystical experience.. hell, even writing about a faux mystical experience is acceptible if it has a type of metaphysical truth to it.
    In the Christian realm, "sect" is a four-letter word in more ways than one.

    I don't know what you mean by "authoritative," there is only mainstream or fringeist. For example, denying the divinity or the historical truth of Christ is fringe thinking. Then there are for example some odd fringe sects consisting of those Christians who refuse all medical care, and who only go to the dentist when their dental health has deteriorated to the point of needing all their teeth pulled out. These practices are based on some non-mainstream interpretations of the Bible, or on the teachings of false prophets. If you want to know who a "false prophet" is, just call up your local mainstream religious minister.

    "even writing about a faux mystical experience is acceptible if it has a type of metaphysical truth to it." You don't know the difference between a faux mystical experience and a true one. The difference is that if an experience carries with it metaphysical truth, then it was a true mystical experience.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  9. #19
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    That's completely wrong, but I don't have time to explain to you why.
    Well I have time to explain to you why it isn't wrong.

    If Christopher Columbus did not discover America, does that mean that nobody discovered America? Does it mean that America doesn't exist?
    Short answer, No.
    Long answer, Nooooooooooooo.

  10. #20
    Post Human Post Qlip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mal+ View Post
    In the Christian realm, "sect" is a four-letter word in more ways than one.

    I don't know what you mean by "authoritative," there is only mainstream or fringeist. For example, denying the divinity or the historical truth of Christ is fringe thinking. Then there are for example some odd fringe sects consisting of those Christians who refuse all medical care, and who only go to the dentist when their dental health has deteriorated to the point of needing all their teeth pulled out. These practices are based on some non-mainstream interpretations of the Bible, or on the teachings of false prophets. If you want to know who a "false prophet" is, just call up your local mainstream religious minister.

    "even writing about a faux mystical experience is acceptible if it has a type of metaphysical truth to it." You don't know the difference between a faux mystical experience and a true one. The difference is that if an experience carries with it metaphysical truth, then it was a true mystical experience.
    You can define Christianity as you like by your own personal definition of Christianity, I logically can't disagree with that type of sophistry. I just assume if a significant body of people call themselves a Christian and has a rationalization for it, who am I to argue.

    I really don't know what you're saying in that second paragraph. As far as my reference to a faux metaphyscial experience, the faux was referencing the the factuality, not the metaphysicallity. I do know the difference.

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