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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    That's not what I believe, though.
    So you believe that rocks exist, and don't think, but that being implies thinking? Can you elaborate?

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    It still is false but I'm not looking at the statement being false. We already covered this and I'm beginning to repeat myself...
    Repetition is the mother of learning. Sometimes two things that seem the same at a superficial level, are not the same in actuality.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    That they are being made? It seems? That they are a predicate, and a predicate modifies a subject - not the subject contained in the statement but in this case it's the subject making the statement.


    No, but I can conclude that they are making statements, which is a predication.


    Yes it's possible and I haven't tried to say otherwise.


    Things still predicate even virtually.
    Well, this notion of predication is strange to me.

    A thought was made. Therefore there was thinking. Whether the thought was "I think therefore I am" or the thought was "I am therefore I think" there was a thought and therefore a thinker. Is that what you are getting at?

    The logic is still "I think therefore I am." However, even thinking that "I am therefore I think", as erroneous as that may be, is evidence of existence.

    Am I getting any closer?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  2. #62
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Repetition is the mother of learning. Sometimes two things that seem the same at a superficial level, are not the same in actuality.

    Well, this notion of predication is strange to me.

    A thought was made. Therefore there was thinking. Whether the thought was "I think therefore I am" or the thought was "I am therefore I think" there was a thought and therefore a thinker. Is that what you are getting at?

    The logic is still "I think therefore I am." However, even thinking that "I am therefore I think", as erroneous as that may be, is evidence of existence.

    Am I getting any closer?
    Yes that's getting very close to what I'm talking about.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes that's getting very close to what I'm talking about.
    What is missing?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #64
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    What is missing?
    Declaring 'I am' in this sense is in the context of metacognitive thinking. The author has thought about it and concludes that they 'are'.

    This doesn't necessarily happen when a machine prints it out, since this is a momentary metacognitive statement in the face of doubting pretty much all things. In a sense it is concluding "I am and I think, therefore I am and I think" in response to "What do I actually know about anything at all?"

  5. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Declaring 'I am' in this sense is in the context of metacognitive thinking. The author has thought about it and concludes that they 'are'.

    This doesn't necessarily happen when a machine prints it out, since this is a momentary metacognitive statement in the face of doubting pretty much all things. In a sense it is concluding "I am and I think, therefore I am and I think" in response to "What do I actually know about anything at all?"
    Ah. OK.

    To that I would add, "I see. I hear. I feel. I believe...." Whatever faculties I have that I directly experience.

    Now, if only I could figure out what @Ginko meant.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #66
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Ah. OK.

    To that I would add, "I see. I hear. I feel. I believe...." Whatever faculties I have that I directly experience.

    Now, if only I could figure out what @<a href="http://www.typologycentral.com/forums/member.php?u=8031" target="_blank">Ginko</a> meant.
    Yay! *throws a party*



    As for what Ginkgo meant, well, knowing that you don't know and that you want to figure it out and devising a plan to do so is metacognition. How do we go about solving this?

  7. #67
    Ginkgo
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    Being implies thinking. Meaning, something is thinking about the being (a being such as a rock)- not necessarily that the being thinks. God, and/or another conscious being thinks about it.

  8. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Being implies thinking. Meaning, something is thinking about the being (a being such as a rock)- not necessarily that the being thinks. God, and/or another conscious being thinks about it.
    So everything that exists, exists because something thought about it?

    Is the Atman thing I mentioned earlier similar to your ontology?

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  9. #69
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Being implies thinking. Meaning, something is thinking about the being (a being such as a rock)- not necessarily that the being thinks. God, and/or another conscious being thinks about it.
    Unexpected development!

    inb4 detractors:
    Descartes actually touched on this, in the sense that he was not sure that 'he' 'existed' in the sense of Descartes having a physical body. He also wasn't sure that anything or anyone else (in the sense of humanoid physical beings) existed when he said this. He concluded that, even if there is some mysterious god or something which is lying to him and putting things into his mind, he still exists. Not in the sense of a guy that exists sitting in a chair that exists, just in the sense of a mind existing - at least for that particular moment.

  10. #70
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    So everything that exists, exists because something thought about it?

    Is the Atman thing I mentioned earlier similar to your ontology?
    I don't know. Can't I just tell the police I'm Atman?

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