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  1. #31
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    EDIT: Maybe I should be more explicit, because I thought people took certain things for granted.
    Do you exist when you are asleep and not dreaming? Do you think in this state?
    An interesting question. Existential implications. It's irrelevant, though. Even if I did, there's no guarantee I would remember. And, even if I remembered, that was then and this is now. It's relevant that I think about the past, though.

    I don't think cogito ergo sum refers to the sort of thinking I think you are describing. I think it refers to awareness and consciousness in general.

  2. #32
    WALMART
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    "If I do not exist, who's arthritis is this?"

  3. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    An interesting question. Existential implications. It's irrelevant, though. Even if I did, there's no guarantee I would remember. And, even if I remembered, that was then and this is now. It's relevant that I think about the past, though.

    I don't think cogito ergo sum refers to the sort of thinking I think you are describing. I think it refers to awareness and consciousness in general.
    Even still. Existence without awareness and consciousness is also possible. What about those who have died, and then are resuscitated?

    In a Venn Diagram , existence would be a bigger set that encompasses awareness/consciousness, and thinking would be a smaller set, completely contained within.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #34
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Even still. Existence without awareness and consciousness is also possible. What about those who have died, and then are resuscitated?

    In a Venn Diagram , existence would be a bigger set that encompasses awareness/consciousness, and thinking would be a smaller set, completely contained within.
    Yes, but 'I think, therefore I am' is in the context of proof for one's own existence.

    This is expressed in a lot of different ways such as 'there must be one who is thinking'.

    By even saying 'I' it already denotes a conscious entity, because the entity has already named itself. This facet is apparently inseparable, since there's an 'I' on both sides of the equation. 'I am' is an entity naming itself just as well as 'I think' is an entity naming itself, so it really does imply consciousness backwards and forwards.

    This isn't to say that something must be conscious to exist. It just says that being conscious is a proof of existence.

  5. #35
    Ginkgo
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Even still. Existence without awareness and consciousness is also possible. What about those who have died, and then are resuscitated?
    I believe those who have died and are resuscitated exist through the process.

    In a Venn Diagram , existence would be a bigger set that encompasses awareness/consciousness, and thinking would be a smaller set, completely contained within.
    I agree according to your definition of thinking.


    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes, but 'I think, therefore I am' is in the context of proof for one's own existence.

    This is expressed in a lot of different ways such as 'there must be one who is thinking'.

    By even saying 'I' it already denotes a conscious entity, because the entity has already named itself. This facet is apparently inseparable, since there's an 'I' on both sides of the equation. 'I am' is an entity naming itself just as well as 'I think' is an entity naming itself, so it really does imply consciousness backwards and forwards.

    This isn't to say that something must be conscious to exist. It just says that being conscious is a proof of existence.
    Thanks for reiterating what I've been trying to say in a different (and perhaps more palatable) way.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireShield98 View Post
    I am, therefore I think.
    That's just you.

    I am, but I don't think.

    At op:

    You think therefore you are?

    I think not, therefore you aren't.

    But, if you must prove your existence to me, must you control what I think, and change it to what you think?

    And if you control what I think, then am I not, but only you are?

    I think, therefore, I think I am.

  7. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes, but 'I think, therefore I am' is in the context of proof for one's own existence.

    This is expressed in a lot of different ways such as 'there must be one who is thinking'.
    Indeed, for this much, I think we all have agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    By even saying 'I' it already denotes a conscious entity, because the entity has already named itself. This facet is apparently inseparable, since there's an 'I' on both sides of the equation. 'I am' is an entity naming itself just as well as 'I think' is an entity naming itself, so it really does imply consciousness backwards and forwards.
    This is a limitation of language itself, and our basic point of contention. "I" in many ways is an illusion. Have you ever intentionally blanked out your thinking? Descartes may have himself made this error. But it is still an error. The "I" who thinks is more than the thinker...more than the "I" even.

    Have you ever achieved a state of flow doing sports? How aware of the "I" were you? How much did you exist during that time?

    Have you meditated on nothing for long periods of time? How aware of "I" were you? How much did you exist at that time?

    Do you believe you stop existing every time you stop being aware of yourself? Do you pop back and forth into existence every time you loose and gain consciousness?

    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    This isn't to say that something must be conscious to exist. It just says that being conscious is a proof of existence.
    Yes. Again, here, we are in agreement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    I believe those who have died and are resuscitated exist through the process.
    Through the resuscitation process, they exist. But do they think? Are they aware of themselves in anyway? Are they aware at all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ginkgo View Post
    Thanks for reiterating what I've been trying to say in a different (and perhaps more palatable) way.
    I believe I understand what you guys are saying. I just believe what you are saying is false.

    A younger me may have had trouble understanding what I am saying, and may have made the same sort of statements you make. Those who spend a lot of time in their own mind (and I am one of them) may have a difficult time seeing the "I" for the limited version of consciousness that it is.

    A much younger me would not have had the same difficulty.


    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    At op:

    You think therefore you are?

    I think not, therefore you aren't.

    But, if you must prove your existence to me, must you control what I think, and change it to what you think?

    And if you control what I think, then am I not, but only you are?
    Yes. The existence of others is a difficult thing to "prove". But I hope you are convinced I exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by xisnotx View Post
    I think, therefore, I think I am.
    lol. OK. This is perhaps a more accurate statement of the moment of thought.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  8. #38
    Mojibake sprinkles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    This is a limitation of language itself, and our basic point of contention. "I" in many ways is an illusion. Have you ever intentionally blanked out your thinking? Descartes may have himself made this error. But it is still an error. The "I" who thinks is more than the thinker...more than the "I" even.
    Yes but when I do that I'm not going to be forming logical arguments.

    Have you ever achieved a state of flow doing sports? How aware of the "I" were you? How much did you exist during that time?

    Have you meditated on nothing for long periods of time? How aware of "I" were you? How much did you exist at that time?
    Not aware enough to say "I think, therefore I am". I exist the same 'amount' as always but I stop considering it, which is the key to what I'm saying.

    Do you believe you stop existing every time you stop being aware of yourself? Do you pop back and forth into existence every time you loose and gain consciousness?
    No, but we already covered that something can exist without consciousness. Something that isn't conscious or thinking doesn't seek proof that itself exists.

  9. #39
    Riva
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    And an INTP party is was and an INTP party it would continue be 'this thread is' as I suspected.

    Quote Originally Posted by RaptorWizard View Post
    The focus of our perceptions creates reality. Indeed, the power of focus may be the greatest gift of mental power we possess, it allowing us to impose our willpower upon creation!
    Other than in the Secret where else does it say this? I genuinely like to know.

  10. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by sprinkles View Post
    Yes but when I do that I'm not going to be forming logical arguments.


    Not aware enough to say "I think, therefore I am". I exist the same 'amount' as always but I stop considering it, which is the key to what I'm saying.


    No, but we already covered that something can exist without consciousness. Something that isn't conscious or thinking doesn't seek proof that itself exists.
    So when we are considering proofs, or in a state when we are making formal statements, are we to ignore all the times we are not making formal statements? This seems like an odd and limited way to make proofs, and is certainly not the way it is done in Mathematics (even when Descartes was alive).

    I just want to narrow down on where the disagreement is:
    Which of the statements do you believe to be true:
    1. "Being implies thinking."
    2. "My existence implies my thinking."
    3. "I cannot exist without thinking."
    4. "I cannot be when I am not thinking".
    5. "If I am not thinking, I am not."
    6. "If I am, I am thinking."
    7. "I am, therefore I am thinking."
    8. "I am, therefore I think."
    9. "Existence implies the ability to think."

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

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