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  1. #91
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Wasn't this answered a while back, obviously didnt read the entire thread but I thought someone summed it up succinctly earlier.

    Basically for the thought to be had something has to be thinking it. Regardless of form or data. Some would say the mistake is the use of I as in myself and my ego.

    But id say thinking you are you is enough, even if you are not you but part of someone or something elses you. You are still you, so some part of you exists in the you-ness.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  2. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    my existing comes from me thinking, because if i wouldnt think(at all or as i do), i wouldnt be me. i think you existing as you is also quite dependent of you thinking. also, there wouldnt be sense of I without thinking, so someone who says "I am" has to be someone who thinks
    A person's ability to think is necessary for a person's existence? Even as a baby? or in a coma? I am trying to find the boundaries of what you believe regarding the link between existence and thought.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  3. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Wasn't this answered a while back, obviously didnt read the entire thread but I thought someone summed it up succinctly earlier.

    Basically for the thought to be had something has to be thinking it. Regardless of form or data. Some would say the mistake is the use of I and in myself and my ego.

    But id say thinking you are you is enough, even if you are not you but part of someone or something elses you. You are still you, so some part of you exists in the you-ness.
    Yes. I believe almost everyone would say that existence is necessary for thinking, the question brought up later, however, is if thinking is necessary for existence?

    In some belief systems, both would be true. But so far, it seems like these systems make use of words like "think" and "am" in ways quite different from ordinary usage.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  4. #94
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    Yes. I believe almost everyone would say that existence is necessary for thinking, the question brought up later, however, is if thinking is necessary for existence?

    In some belief systems, both would be true. But so far, it seems like these systems make use of words like "think" and "am" in ways quite different from ordinary usage.
    Depends on whether or not thinking is defined purely by human standards.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  5. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by nebbykoo View Post
    derek Jensen, in a book called 'A Language Older Than Words' says something to the effect of, If Descartes had had a lover in his room instead of a wood stove, maybe he would have decided that 'I feel, therefore I exist.' It's a valid conjecture, vis-a-vis this thread.
    Indeed.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  6. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by AffirmitiveAnxiety View Post
    Depends on whether or not thinking is defined purely by human standards.
    I was using it in the way I have seen it normally used. I believe these would be human standards. I am interested in what sorts of definitions you had in mind, however.

    Accept the past. Live for the present. Look forward to the future.
    Robot Fusion
    "As our island of knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance." John Wheeler
    "[A] scientist looking at nonscientific problems is just as dumb as the next guy." Richard Feynman
    "[P]etabytes of [] data is not the same thing as understanding emergent mechanisms and structures." Jim Crutchfield

  7. #97
    Wake, See, Sing, Dance Cellmold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ygolo View Post
    I was using it in the way I have seen it normally used. I believe these would be human standards. I am interested in what sorts of definitions you had in mind, however.
    Well if thinking is necessary to exist we have to consider what it is we are talking about. We have no proof that a planet, or a star thinks, but we also have no proof that they dont, spurious I know but bear with me. But neither are humans and so even if they did think, it would be unrecognisable to us. So we can only know that we, or rather I as in a creature of self recognition, can think therefore I am.

    So the question of thinking being necessary to exist isn't needed here because the definition is wholly human in intention. From this we can understand that the idea of existing is meant as just that; an idea. It is not existance in a literal sense. So because we can have this idea in some form, we exist.
    'One of (Lucas) Cranach's masterpieces, discussed by (Joseph) Koerner, is in it's self-referentiality the perfect expression of left-hemisphere emptiness and a precursor of post-modernism. There is no longer anything to point to beyond, nothing Other, so it points pointlessly to itself.' - Iain McGilChrist

    Suppose a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?"
    "Suppose it didn't," said Pooh, after careful thought.
    Piglet was comforted by this.
    - A.A. Milne.

  8. #98
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    You are energy evolving who can think, feel, etc.

    The energy exists and you are energy. But everything is energy. Therefore, you must be part of one thing. However, there may be a kind of duality going on here.

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